Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SirNobody on January 16, 2009, 12:58:56 PM
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Hey,
I attack with Paul and during the battle I play Cup of Wrath. Can I choose my opponent's Saul to fight against one of my evil characters since it's a different battle? Or does it still violate the duplicates in play rule since there are still two copies of the same person in the field of battle at the same time?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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It violates it imo.
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Eh, Saul and Paul are completely different characters. I would think that you could force your opponent to block your Paul with a Saul. :dunno:
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Ok if I change my name bob, am I a different person? I believe he means Saul/Paul's side of saul.
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But the idea of Saul/Paul was that we WAS a completely new person. It wasn't just a name change.
I think technically RR is right, but still...
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A life change may change you as a person but the body is the same :-p when Saul became paul he didn't create a new body.
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Hey,
Some character cards have different card titles, but are the same character. A player may have only one of these in your territory, in battle, in a side battle, face down, or set-aside at a time:
• Whore of Babylon or Babylon the Great, Morg or Morgan, Saul/Paul (as Saul) or Saul/Paul (as Paul), Esau or Esau the Hunter
They are the same character for game play purposes. The question is does the rule prevent them from being in the same battle against each other or does it prevent them from both being in the Field of Battle at the same time.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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Hm I guess it depends who controls saul. You could make him control it but not yourself.
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I don't think so... I think that you should be able to have both in battle, like RR said, as long as you were not controlling both. You can have one in each players territory, so why not battle?
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I don't think so... I think that you should be able to have both in battle, like RR said, as long as you were not controlling both. You can have one in each players territory, so why not battle?
Then can I force My copy and my opponent's copy of Moses to fight in a side battle?
Obviously you cannot have them physically fight each other, but I'm in 2 minds as to whether another copy should be allowed to go into a side battle. Technically the field of battle is treated as on place (example: Negate All abilities effect all battles) so I'd have to say causing Saul to fight in a side battle while Paul was in the main one, or vice versa, would rip a hole in the space/time continuum.
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A life change may change you as a person but the body is the same :-p when Saul became paul he didn't create a new body.
Since when are people defined by their bodies in the first place?
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The actual rule only prohibits the same character from being in the same battle or being in the same side-battle. Neither of these stipulations is violated by having the same unique character in two different battles.
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A life change may change you as a person but the body is the same :-p when Saul became paul he didn't create a new body.
Since when are people defined by their bodies in the first place?
When it comes to redemption that is what it is defined as. EC King Saul Can't fight Hero King Saul.
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The REG rule quoted is intended to be read as an inclusive list, not exclusive. If you have Paul in territory, you cannot block with Saul from hand. That is because the rule says that you cannot have a duplicate character in territory and battle. It seems that the use of the word "or" in the REG quote is being interpreted as making separate entities of the parts. IMO, the word "or" is just part of a list of all the possibilities. You cannot have a duplicate character in your control in any of the places on the list.
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Hey,
If you look back at the original question, Saul was controlled by one player, Paul was controlled by the other. I wasn't asking about controlling more than one but rather about more than one of them being in the Field of Battle at the same time. The rules are clear that two of the same character can't fight against each other in the same battle, but assuming the two are controlled by different players do we allow multiple copies of a character to be in the field of battle if they are in different battles?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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I did read the original post. You choose who to control in a side battle that you initiate, so your example was not that clear to me.
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Hmm.
If I attack with King Saul (purple), then you can't block with King Saul (brown). So who is controlling the character is not important in that case, but the fact that it is the same battle (or else the fact that they are in the field of battle) does seem important.
If I have King Saul (brown) in my territory, then I can't attack with king Saul (purple) from my hand, but you can still block with your King Saul (brown). Who controls the character matters here. Clearly I can't simultaneously control a Saul in one battle and control a Paul in a side battle.
I guess the only question is whether uniqueness applies to the whole field of battle, regardless of whether the "same-characters" are controlled by different players. (Wow, I just said a whole lot to ask the question you just asked). My preference would be that it does apply to the whole field of battle, but I understand those who want the more limited application of the rule.
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+1
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Out of curiosity, is the fact that you cannot block King Saul with King Saul a written rule or unwritten rule?
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It's the Duplicate rule. Two of the same guy cannot be in the Field of Battle or anywhere on your side of the table.
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LOL. I meant where is that written. The "Duplicate Rule" in the rulebook and REG just says that you cannot control the same character. If I control one and my opponent the other in the same battle, where in the rulebook or REG does it say that is illegal too? I looked but couldn't find it. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just wanted to use the rulebook or REG quote to defend my interpretation (which is as Bryon stated).
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The rules say you cannot control a duplicate character. That means you cannot control a character that is the same guy as any other character in any of those areas, including the entire Field of Battle. That is not the same thing as saying you cannot control two of the same character.
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So if my opponent puts a character in battle that I have in my territory (which I control), that is breaking the "Duplicate Rule?"
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Hey,
In the REG glossary of terms under Duplicate Cards:
"No player may control duplicates of a unique character or cause them to fight each other."
The bold part being the reasons you cannot block King Saul with King Saul.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne)
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Thank you. That is what I was looking for. I'm not sure how I missed it the first time, though. :doh:
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Also, Schaef has specifically stated that you can't control a duplicate of anyone who is in the entire field of battle, which is not true as of now. The REG only states "battle," not the entire field of battle. That is what we are debating here.
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It says in battle and in a side battle. Those pretty much make up the entire Field of Battle if I'm not too much mistaken.
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So getting back to the original question, the Duplicate Rule does not allow me to control a duplicate or to cause duplicates to fight each other. If I control King Saul in battle and my opponent controls King Saul in a side battle, that does not seem to violate either portion of the Duplicate Rule.
If we do want to go with "Field of Battle," the REG or rulebook would have to add that distinction since it is not addressed currently.