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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Captain Kirk on February 18, 2013, 01:28:19 AM
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Opponent makes RA with hero. I block with King Rehoboam and choose another hero to fight my green hero. On my green hero I play Drawn Sword (2012) and target the hero my opponent rescued with.
Does my opponent have a chance to interrupt/negate Drawn Sword with the rescuing hero? If so, why?
I recognize special initiative changed but it seems that Drawn Sword would be in d/c pile by time side battle ended and that nothing could negate it once the main battle resumed.
King Rehoboam "Select any two heroes in territory to fight each other..."
Drawn Sword "...you may discard an opponent's character in the field of battle..."
Special Initiative Change Thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/rule-changeclarification-negates/msg484710/#new (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/rule-changeclarification-negates/msg484710/#new)
Kirk
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Kirk, the thread you referenced was more in relation to negates than special initiative. We did rework the definition of SI last year though. Here is what it says.
When you are losing the battle by removal, you are granted special initiative to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the card that is causing your character's removal. You are considered to be losing by removal when an opponent's special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave you with no character in battle when the special ability has completed.
I believe "losing the battle by removal" in the first sentence only applies to the current battle. Therefore if you removea character in another battle, even if it would leave no other character on that side of the battle, the controller would not get SI because the character being removed is not the current battle.
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That's how we ended up playing it out.
Would it make a difference if the card played ended both battles? (Deceit of Sapphira/Rizpah's Sackcloth)
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Would it make a difference if the card played ended both battles? (Deceit of Sapphira/Rizpah's Sackcloth)
In that situation you would have SI to play an interrupt/negate on your character in the side battle.
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Thanks Gabe.
Kirk
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Kirk, the thread you referenced was more in relation to negates than special initiative. We did rework the definition of SI last year though. Here is what it says.
When you are losing the battle by removal, you are granted special initiative to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the card that is causing your character's removal. You are considered to be losing by removal when an opponent's special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave you with no character in battle when the special ability has completed.
I believe "losing the battle by removal" in the first sentence only applies to the current battle. Therefore if you removea character in another battle, even if it would leave no other character on that side of the battle, the controller would not get SI because the character being removed is not the current battle.
Gabe, can we reconcile with the rulings in this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/a-few-quick-questions-31642/) that apparently you gain SI to negate the side-battle card when the original battle resumes?
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2. I've always played, had it explained, and seen it ruled that if a side-battle causes the removal of the opposing side in the main battle, after its conclusion that side gains special initiative to interrupt whatever caused the side-battle. It's always seemed weird to me but it is nonetheless how it has been ruled in the past.
I think the reasoning for Number 2 (which is also correct, as far as I know) is that a side battle takes place instantaneously with respect to the main battle, so all the abilities that result from the side battle are similar to one card with multiple abilities. For example, if I played a card that said "Discard a Hero. Draw a card. Remove a Site from the Game. Band to a demon." then all of those other abilities would happen before the Hero gets a chance to negate the discard (which may or may not negate the rest). Similarly, the side battle resolves before you get a chance to negate it.
Thanks for finding that thread Redoubter. I had originally posted in this thread something along these lines, but I'm always a bit fuzzy on side-battle questions, and after Gabe's answer and getting downvoted by a respected player, I figured that I was just wrong and deleted my post.
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Redoubter is correct. Side battles confuse most of us but we must remember that it is initiated due to an instant special ability. In Kirk's scenario, special initiative in the original battle is not determined until King Rehoboam's special ability completes, as Redoubter infers. Then at that point the opponent may play an interrupt or negate that targets the special ability that causes the removal, which in this case is King Rehoboam's special ability.
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Redoubter is correct. Side battles confuse most of us but we must remember that it is initiated due to an instant special ability. In Kirk's scenario, special initiative in the original battle is not determined until King Rehoboam's special ability completes, as Redoubter infers. Then at that point the opponent may play an interrupt or negate that targets the special ability that causes the removal, which in this case is King Rehoboam's special ability.
Real quick, just wanted to say that I disagree with the rule as it was stated in that thread, as SI had been defined (and has since been clarified) to only allow targeting of the actual ability causing removal, not the cards that led to it. In this case, SI should be allowed when the main battle resumes, but only to negate the card that caused removal.
I wanted to post that thread so that we could hash this out with the new rules and get a standard answer (even though I may disagree with the result personally ;)).
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This is identical to my old trick where I used In the Clouds in the side battle off Rehoboam to remove my opponent's hero in the main battle. It was ruled on several occasions that the hero in the main battle could not negate it after the side battle completed.
See this thread where Sir Nobody confirms that (but also posts about being able to indirectly negate it, which is not correct):
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/another-side-battle/msg235638/#msg235638
Kirk
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I wouldn't even say that negating Rehoboam is indirect. You have to look at it from the perspective of the original battle. Everything in the side battle is a part of a single instant ability. Whatever happens to the hero as a result of the side battle happens in a single instant from the perspective of the hero. The hero could be poisoned, have its ability negated, and returned to hand in the side battle. When the side battle ends, the hero has instantly had each of those things happen and all will be negated if Rehoboam's ability is negated. So in my opinion that makes it a direct negate. And if the side battle causes removal from the original battle, the hero gains special initiative.
If this is not the case due to some new rule, then a hole has opened in the dike so you better line up a bunch of Dutch boys.
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If this is not the case due to some new rule, then a hole has opened in the dike so you better line up a bunch of Dutch boys.
This isn't so much a case of new rules rather than it is a case of only a couple cards being able to do what I am talking about. In the Clouds and Drawn Sword are the only two good enhancements that can be played in a side battle and target another hero in another battle (the main battle).
If the situation is reversed - meaning a good card causing a side battle - then there are more evil cards that can target another evil character in another battle.
I could be wrong on the rationale for why In the Clouds/Drawn Sword cannot be negated from the main battle but I had my ItC combo ruled on several times and it came out the same each time.
Kirk
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I'm simply interpreting your question using top-down rules that have been in place for many years regarding instant abilities. It really doesn't matter if it's two cards or two hundred cards that are impacted. More often than not, threads get caught up in fixing specific cards or interpreting rules from bottom-up. Furthermore, side battles seem to confuse more players and Elders than most other ability types.
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I'm not arguing this regarding any particular cards, but the whole class of cards, if that helps at all with what you were saying ;)
Our definition of Special Initiative that was being worked on stated that only the ability that caused the removal could be targeted. Rehoboam causing a side battle did not cause the removal, just like playing an ITB+D3+Play did not cause the removal. Only the card that did cause the removal caused the removal.
This used to be an issue with SI when it wasn't determined that you could negate a card that ended up out-of-play during SI, but you now can. There is no extra combo-breaking ability that wasn't there already, since you can still target the actual source. And since you can target the source, we should treat this like every other similar case (Draw+Play, Omri + Gates, Play First) which has been ruled to be that you must target the actual ability, not the ability that triggered or allowed it.
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I haven't seen anything to convince me that the original ruling on this thread is not accurate. It's based on what's written in the REG. Kirk has pointed to where Tim also confirmed the ruling previously. It's also historically proven accurate based on Kirk's "In the Clouds" combo that has been ruled legal at major tournaments.
The opposing view starts with "this is weird but it's how I've always seen it" to which Jordan attempts to explain but disclaimers his own explanation (as far as I know). When I leave a disclaimer it's because I'm unsure of the accuracy of the information I'm presenting. Scott's explanation is convoluted and claims the side battle card is directly doing the removal when clearly it's not.
Obviously there are some parts of the country where they might be playing this wrong. As Scott mentioned, side battles do confuse some people.
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I am truly sorry. Gabe is correct that I have been playing it wrong, but shockingly not in the way he and others may think. In fact, we've all been playing it wrong. Looking at the side battle ability more closely I am amazed at the things that have been played incorrectly. It's like reading Scripture several times before it finally makes sense.
A side battle ability is an instant ability. It is not "interrupt-and-insert-abilities". As such, here are some other things that have been played incorrectly over the years:
1. Dominants can be played during a side battle but their ability cannot be carried out until the side battle completes.
2. Optional abilities that were put in play prior to the side battle cannot insert their abilities until the side battle completes, e.g. artifact such as Unholy Writ.
That leaves us with triggered abilities. To be honest, I don't know a lot of cards off the top of my head so I'll have to review the different types of triggers when I'm not at work. Be that as it may, it will depend on when the trigger is put in play (before/during side battle) and when the trigger is tripped.
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A side battle ability is an instant ability. It is not "interrupt-and-insert-abilities". As such, here are some other things that have been played incorrectly over the years:
1. Dominants can be played during a side battle but their ability cannot be carried out until the side battle completes.
2. Optional abilities that were put in play prior to the side battle cannot insert their abilities until the side battle completes, e.g. artifact such as Unholy Writ.
I don't agree with this. What about a second battle created by Grapes of Wrath? It was created by a special ability, so do the same rules apply?
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A side battle ability is an instant ability. It is not "interrupt-and-insert-abilities". As such, here are some other things that have been played incorrectly over the years:
1. Dominants can be played during a side battle but their ability cannot be carried out until the side battle completes.
2. Optional abilities that were put in play prior to the side battle cannot insert their abilities until the side battle completes, e.g. artifact such as Unholy Writ.
I don't agree with this. What about a second battle created by Grapes of Wrath? It was created by a special ability, so do the same rules apply?
Grapes of Wrath sets a trigger for an optional ability to start a new battle phase (I believe that's how I've seen it ruled), so it's not the same. The Long Day is along these same lines. Ambush the City is a nested battle phase.
Fight Each Other cards that I can tick off in my mind: King Rehoboam, Sword of the Lord, Cup of Wrath, Idle Gossip, Joseph's Brothers' Scheme, Sword Against Sword.
Sing and Praise, Troops Discharged and Visions have a little caveat in that an ongoing ability is placed on the side battle, and isn't a separate ability that's activated after the side battle.
Bottom line: unless it's interrupted, no ability may be inserted into an instant ability. And dominants have always needed to wait until all pending abilities complete anyway.
Within the side battle itself, the order of abilities are still followed and ongoing abilities that impact the side battle/field of battle are active, e.g. protection. But outside of the side battle, everything in the side battle appears to happen all at once.
I apologize for being the bearer of bad news, but hey let's face it, if anyone plays the part of Murphy it's usually me. ;)
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If that were true then you would not be able to play any enhancements in a Side Battle, unless they were attached to the character entering battle (i.e. play next, or placed by Agur).
It seems to me that the initiation of the Side Battle is instant, but the rest of the battle follows the normal rules of a battle, in which SAs can be inserted and dominants can be played.
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If that were true then you would not be able to play any enhancements in a Side Battle, unless they were attached to the character entering battle (i.e. play next, or placed by Agur).
Actually the opposite is true.
It seems to me that the initiation of the Side Battle is instant,
That may be the route that the Elders go to get the thorn from their side, but that will doubtless create its own issues.
but the rest of the battle follows the normal rules of a battle, in which SAs can be inserted and dominants can be played.
The side battle does indeed follow all the rules of a battle up to and including battle resolution. But the entire battle is under the umbrella of an instant ability. It's somewhat similar to the ITB+play next, which allows for specific cards/abilities to be inserted.
It's been played wrong. Hopefully there won't be any knee-jerk reactions and a full regression analysis can be administered.
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If that were true then you would not be able to play any enhancements in a Side Battle, unless they were attached to the character entering battle (i.e. play next, or placed by Agur).
Actually the opposite is true.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Please explain, and use small words so that I am sure to understand. ;)
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If that were true then you would not be able to play any enhancements in a Side Battle, unless they were attached to the character entering battle (i.e. play next, or placed by Agur).
Actually the opposite is true.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Please explain, and use small words so that I am sure to understand. ;)
I agree with YMT that I'm not following the logic in this thread, nor what anyone is arguing anymore...can we have clarity as to where we are in the discussion, because at this I'm not even sure what the "rule" is and what the "change" is...if there is one? ??? It'd be helpful if we boil down the discussions as YMT said. Here goes my effort for my point:
The card causing SI must be interrupted or negated directly during SI for a card to be played. Draw+Play, Omri, Play First, etc. cannot be independently targeted to stop a different ability that resulted and caused SI, and the same should apply to Side Battle cards.
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Just because chicken little says the sky is falling does not mean we need to bring in "dutch boys" or administer a full regression analysis. All I've seen so far in Stamp's posts is a misrepresentation of the rules as they pertain to side battles. I can't even call it a misinterpretation because I haven't seen any rules referenced in the related posts, in or out of context.
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Just because chicken little says the sky is falling does not mean we need to bring in "dutch boys" or administer a full regression analysis. All I've seen so far in Stamp's posts is a misrepresentation of the rules as they pertain to side battles. I can't even call it a misinterpretation because I haven't seen any rules referenced in the related posts, in or out of context.
Okay so...what is the current ruling then? I'm assuming what you originally ruled, but I want to make sure, because this thread got very confusing and I want to make sure that when it is searched out in the future it's crystal clear (and I rule correctly this Saturday) :)
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Just because chicken little says the sky is falling does not mean we need to bring in "dutch boys" or administer a full regression analysis. All I've seen so far in Stamp's posts is a misrepresentation of the rules as they pertain to side battles. I can't even call it a misinterpretation because I haven't seen any rules referenced in the related posts, in or out of context.
Chicken Little?!? I know I'm shorter than you but that was a "low" blow. :laugh:
The only rule I've needed to mention is that in the past "Fight Each Other" was classified as an instant ability. Everything else is based off that.
Is "Fight Each Other" still an instant ability?
Is "Instant Ability" defined in the rules?
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Clearly there is some confusion about how exactly side battles affect the main battle. A discussion has been begun on the playtester side and we will try to resolve as quickly as possible.
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Clearly there is some confusion about how exactly side battles affect the main battle. A discussion has been begun on the playtester side and we will try to resolve as quickly as possible.
That would be great. I have never really understood how to accurately rule these kind of questions. I usually "accidently" flip the table over and call for the end of the round.
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Clearly there is some confusion about how exactly side battles affect the main battle. A discussion has been begun on the playtester side and we will try to resolve as quickly as possible.
Thanks. I apologize for stirring up a hornet's nest. I also apologize if my explanations weren't completely clear, as I was still incredulous to myself that I missed it all these years.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Please explain, and use small words so that I am sure to understand. ;)
I'll try. As I mention above my explanation is based on a past ruling (and I don't know if it's current) that "Fight Each Other" is an instant ability. Many rulings in the past have been based on this. Like any instant ability, it must complete before any other ability can activate. If for example a "capture" ability is activated, we know we cannot play a dominant to impact the available targets. The dominant's ability must wait until the capture completes. Ergo, the same must be true for a "Fight Each Other" ability. A dominants ability cannot activate until the "Fight Each Other" ability completes. In the past this has always been once the side battle completes. So it follows then that a dominant's ability cannot activate during the entire side battle.
That's the easy part to explain using current rules and using the dominant as an example. So what does that mean? What happens with other ability types? What abilities can be activated during a side battle?
A "Fight Each Other" causes another battle to take place. It has been ruled to be a separate battle but NOT a separate battle phase. So we use the rules for a battle to determine what abilities can activate during the side battle keeping in mind it's the same Battle Phase. The first step is the targeting and activating of characters. Why do their abilities get to activate and not wait until the "Fight Each Other" instant ability completes? I think we use the precedent for "Play Next" abilities to answer that. So cards that are normally played during a battle, characters and enhancements, will activate one after the other based on rules of initiative. However, a "Fight Each Other" ability does not allow for the playing or activating of other abilities so we fall back on game rule. At that point, all other abilities must wait until any pending instant ability completes during the Battle Phase. That would include dominants, triggered and optional abilities that were put in play prior to the side battle. That's why a previously placed enhancement will not activate in the side battle if on a character in a side battle.
In any case, Gabe was right that I never went through the rules in the first place. As I said, I was still in a little bit of shock. But now I've layed it out with rules. I don't see any problems with this other than it's something new to get used to. I doubt it will break anything especially since side battles will limit some types of abilities from activating. It may even add a bit of strategy. :)
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Clearly there is some confusion about how exactly side battles affect the main battle. A discussion has been begun on the playtester side and we will try to resolve as quickly as possible.
I was looking under the rug and found this thread. ;)
But seriously, any word on discussions?
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The elders have finally reached a consensus on this topic. The following clarification is being added to the REG update that's coming later this week.
-If a card with a side battle ability is negated, then all interruptable effects that resulted from cards played during the side battle are likewise negated.
-If a character in the suspended battle is defeated by a special ability played in a side battle, it does not have a chance to interrupt the defeating special ability as it would if the special ability were played in the same battle as the character. This is because by the time the side battle resolves, the only abilities that can be targeted for interrupt are abilities in the main battle, which are not directly causing the removal of the defeated character.