Author Topic: Drawing from the Bottom (Read 2524 times)

Minion of Jesus · « **on:** April 28, 2015, 09:20:07 PM »

If you draw card(s) from the bottom of your deck (ah la new Messenger of Satan) and then the ability is negated, does the card return to the bottom of your deck? I ask, because that just seems odd to do. Maybe I'm just crazy, though.

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:25:59 PM »

Anything negated is undone. Regardless of where the cards come from, they go back (top for normal draw, bottom for Messenger, shuffled back for search, etc.).

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:14:35 PM »

Okay, thanks. Just wasn't sure about it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2015, 12:39:19 AM »

What if you play the card that was drawn?

Praeceps · « **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2015, 01:02:34 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 29, 2015, 12:39:19 AM

What if you play the card that was drawn?

Unless it is CBN or CBIn, I believe it goes back under.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2015, 04:32:29 PM »

The current ruling is that unless the card is CBI or CBN, it is cascade-negated if it were drawn by an ability that is later negated and returned to its original location.

How you enforce that is difficult, and anyone that has an easy method let me know...

Praeceps · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2015, 06:13:43 PM »

I've found that we're less likely to lie to friends, so friendship between players might be an answer.

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2015, 07:08:32 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 29, 2015, 04:32:29 PM

The current ruling is that unless the card is CBI or CBN, it is cascade-negated if it were drawn by an ability that is later negated and returned to its original location.

How you enforce that is difficult, and anyone that has an easy method let me know...

Revert to the old ruling that makes more sense. "You cannot negate the playing of a card". As currently ruled it causes situations such as this that never happened under old rules.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2015, 07:43:21 PM »

Why does that make more sense?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2015, 10:57:15 PM »

In (The Card Game That Must Not Be Named) an ability has a chance to be negated on the stack then once resolved isnt there to be negated anymore later in the turn. (i know theres more to it but im trying to at least show a difference)

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2015, 08:16:46 AM »

It makes sense because undoing the actual PLAYING of a card by negating its draw is not currently consistent, because any card that is CBI or CBN is not returned to deck by the current rulings. The playing of a CBI/CBN card is CBI, but the playing of other cards is not, that was the point of what he was saying.

Red · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2015, 08:54:24 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 30, 2015, 08:16:46 AM

It makes sense because undoing the actual PLAYING of a card by negating its draw is not currently consistent, because any card that is CBI or CBN is not returned to deck by the current rulings. The playing of a CBI/CBN card is CBI, but the playing of other cards is not, that was the point of what he was saying.

Exactly.

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM »

Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** April 30, 2015, 10:18:55 AM »

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM

Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM

Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?

I believe you might be confusing "play abilities" with cards played. A play ability that allows you to play a card (like Ethiopian Treasurer from Apostles) is CBI by game rule. Once the Enhancement is played, negating ET won't undo the effect or make you pick up the played card.

The only thing I can think of that will pick a played card up off the table is a cascading negate. If I draw 3 from Reach of Desperation and play one of the cards I drew (the non-promo Authority of Christ for example), then you later negate the draw ability of Reach, any played cards that aren't CBI/CBN are picked up and returned to their previous location, in this case, the top of the deck.

Red · « **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2015, 10:29:27 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 30, 2015, 10:18:55 AM

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?
Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?

I believe you might be confusing "play abilities" with cards played. A play ability that allows you to play a card (like Ethiopian Treasurer from Apostles) is CBI by game rule. Once the Enhancement is played, negating ET won't undo the effect or make you pick up the played card.

The only thing I can think of that will pick a played card up off the table is a cascading negate. If I draw 3 from Reach of Desperation and play one of the cards I drew (the non-promo Authority of Christ for example), then you later negate the draw ability of Reach, any played cards that aren't CBI/CBN are picked up and returned to their previous location, in this case, the top of the deck.

Why. Why? Why? Why are we allowing people to indirectly negate game actions?

browarod · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2015, 10:34:28 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 30, 2015, 10:18:55 AM

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
Maybe I'm just remembering how it was long ago, but I thought all playing of cards (regardless of the card itself having CBI/CBN) already was CBI?

I believe you might be confusing "play abilities" with cards played. A play ability that allows you to play a card (like Ethiopian Treasurer from Apostles) is CBI by game rule. Once the Enhancement is played, negating ET won't undo the effect or make you pick up the played card.

The only thing I can think of that will pick a played card up off the table is a cascading negate. If I draw 3 from Reach of Desperation and play one of the cards I drew (the non-promo Authority of Christ for example), then you later negate the draw ability of Reach, any played cards that aren't CBI/CBN are picked up and returned to their previous location, in this case, the top of the deck.

Reach has a play ability, though, so wouldn't the playing of that card be CBI regardless of whether you drew it with Reach or already had it in hand? I can see if you just played a card via regular initiative that you drew with Reach being returned to deck if the draw is negated, but if ET's play is CBI Reach's should be, too.

Josh · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2015, 11:01:28 AM »

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 10:34:28 AM

Reach has a play ability, though, so wouldn't the playing of that card be CBI regardless of whether you drew it with Reach or already had it in hand? I can see if you just played a card via regular initiative that you drew with Reach being returned to deck if the draw is negated, but if ET's play is CBI Reach's should be, too.

I'll second this - CBI is CBI. You shouldn't be able to negate CBI, whether directly or indirectly.

Here's another example of a similar situation: I attack with Uriah equipped with Foreign Sword. I use FS to topdeck King of Tyrus in my opponent's territory. My opponent blocks with Damsel W/ Spirit of Divination. My initiative, I play Battle Cry and bring in a Red hero with Warrior's Spear equipped to discard KoT. My opponent then plays Disobedience to negate Battle Cry.

So do "cascading negates" undo Warrior's Spear? Or does it "stick", since Uriah made it CBN? Targeting WS directly with Disobedience wouldn't negate WS; I don't understand how negating Battle Cry should be able to indirectly negate WS.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2015, 11:32:57 AM »

The play ability on Reach of Desperation is CBI not the draw.

browarod · « **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2015, 11:38:51 AM »

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 30, 2015, 11:32:57 AM

The play ability on Reach of Desperation is CBI not the draw.

It should be, yes, but Gabe's post seems to be saying (unless I'm misunderstanding) that even though the play ability *should* be CBI, if the card played was one drawn by Reach then it would still be indirectly negated and returned to deck. That's what I'm questioning.

kram1138 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 30, 2015, 12:01:48 PM »

It's not negating the play ability. It's negating the card paid, then topdecking it, in effect.

browarod · « **Reply #20 on:** April 30, 2015, 12:11:06 PM »

Returning the card to deck seems like it's indirectly negating the play ability, which shouldn't be possible since the play ability is CBI.

kram1138 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 30, 2015, 03:04:20 PM »

An enhancement is played when it's special ability attempts to activate or numbers are activated. This isn't stopping that.

Gabe · « **Reply #22 on:** April 30, 2015, 06:32:17 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 30, 2015, 12:11:06 PM

Returning the card to deck seems like it's indirectly negating the play ability, which shouldn't be possible since the play ability is CBI.

It seems like you're attempting to extend the CBI of the play ability to the card that it played. That's not the case. The played Enhancement as well as the [draw] ability that put it in your hand from the deck don't get CBI from the game rule that applies to the play ability.

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** April 30, 2015, 09:14:18 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 30, 2015, 06:32:17 PM

The played Enhancement as well as the [draw] ability that put it in your hand from the deck don't get CBI from the game rule that applies to the play ability.

I never said that they did, nor do I think that. The played card's ability is perfectly negatable (unless it's CBI or CBN itself).

I'm pointing out that returning the card to the deck is indirectly negating the play ability (since you're undoing the playing of the card) which shouldn't be possible since the play ability is CBI. At least that's how I see it.

kram1138 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »

The way I see it is that negation of the draw doesn't affect the play ability at all. By negating the draw, you negate any cards that were drawn, then return them to the top of deck. It never negates the play ability, just the card played by that ability.

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Author Topic: Drawing from the Bottom (Read 2524 times)

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