Author Topic: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements  (Read 5370 times)

kariusvega

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2017, 12:00:37 AM »
0
That's a very liberal definition of trigger. Gam's Speech is placed in your territory and you can discard it whenever you want.

It was probably a poor choice for the point I was trying to make, I'll edit this post when I think of a better one.

Edit: The point was that triggered abilities are ongoing abilities. "When Hero enters battle, do X" is an ongoing triggered ability that first activates when the enhancement is first placed. It is not an instant ability that activates separately from the rest of the abilities on the card. It doesn't count as played when it enters battle and you trigger the ability, it activates when you place the enhancement along with everything else on the card.

So if everything is tied to the place ability how are the rest of the abilities not inherently cbi in the next phase?

TheHobbit13

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2017, 12:18:22 AM »
+1
That's a very liberal definition of trigger. Gam's Speech is placed in your territory and you can discard it whenever you want.

It was probably a poor choice for the point I was trying to make, I'll edit this post when I think of a better one.

Edit: The point was that triggered abilities are ongoing abilities. "When Hero enters battle, do X" is an ongoing triggered ability that first activates when the enhancement is first placed. It is not an instant ability that activates separately from the rest of the abilities on the card. It doesn't count as played when it enters battle and you trigger the ability, it activates when you place the enhancement along with everything else on the card.
Triggers are ongoing abilities themselves but not necessarily the effects themselves.  Which is to say the delayed part of the trigger is ongoing, but according to the REG in the next sentence, it says instant or ongoing abilities are activated when the condition of the trigger is met, and thus are not inherently ongoing:

"When the given situation occurs, a triggered ability activates, and
can be tied to either an instant or ongoing effect."

AND

"You play an enhancement by attempting to activate its special ability"

Since the triggered effect is part of its ability, it follows that you are playing the enhancement.

Attempting in this situation means the ongoing or instant ability pre-loaded in the trigger takes effect unless anything prevents its. But regardless of prevention it would be still played because it was still trying to activate.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2017, 08:07:51 AM »
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That's a very liberal definition of trigger. Gam's Speech is placed in your territory and you can discard it whenever you want.

It was probably a poor choice for the point I was trying to make, I'll edit this post when I think of a better one.

Edit: The point was that triggered abilities are ongoing abilities. "When Hero enters battle, do X" is an ongoing triggered ability that first activates when the enhancement is first placed. It is not an instant ability that activates separately from the rest of the abilities on the card. It doesn't count as played when it enters battle and you trigger the ability, it activates when you place the enhancement along with everything else on the card.

So if everything is tied to the place ability how are the rest of the abilities not inherently cbi in the next phase?

Because they're ongoing abilities...

kariusvega

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2017, 10:18:35 AM »
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So are you saying they are cbi? It doesn't matter how the place ability is cbi (ie cbi by game rule)if it is cbi when placed and the other abilities are tied to it how are they not cbi?

kariusvega

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2017, 12:18:59 PM »
-1
Instant Ability

Any instant ability whose effects resolved in a
previously-completed phase, even during the same turn, cannot be interrupted or negated.
Effects that complete in a phase can only be undone in the phase they completed.


Anything that follows a colon in Redemption is dependent upon the condition before the colon remaining true


Elder confirmed, all armor and fruits are inherently cbi in the next phase by game rule.

**EDIT**

I've stricken out a blatantly false statement made by JD.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 11:09:08 AM by Gabe »

TheHobbit13

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2017, 12:44:21 PM »
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I would like to see the Elder's logic on that, that's a pretty big ruling... Except the effects of the trigger have not resolved in a previous phase, the instant effects are triggered in a later phase and resolve then. And "Effects that complete in a phase can only be undone in the phase they completed." which would allow the effect of the trigger to be undone for BoR in the battle phase I would say.

kariusvega

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2017, 12:45:35 PM »
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"Placed enhancements are played when they are placed. The abilities have activated and they are waiting for the trigger (like in the case of AoG, for the Hero to enter battle)."

TheHobbit13

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2017, 12:53:35 PM »
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"When the given situation occurs, a triggered ability activates, and
can be tied to either an instant or ongoing effect."

When the conditions are met the trigger activates and so does the effects, which according to the REG can be undone in the same phase which they are activated in. And yeah placed enhancements are played because the ability on the card activates but that doesn't mean all of the effects have taken place. Since you cannot negate effects activated in a different phase you cannot negate the place or the delayed trigger that is placed. Once the trigger is activated the effects of the trigger are activated and occur in the battle phase, in which case you can negate them.

kariusvega

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2017, 01:20:03 PM »
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Ongoing Ability
Ongoing abilities are abilities that have an ongoing effect on the game or specific cards.
They are not completed until their specified duration has ended or the phase in which they
are used has ended, whichever comes later.

An ongoing ability that persists through multiple phases can be interrupted or negated in
each phase in which it is active. If the negation ends with the phase, and the ongoing ability
persists to the next phase, then it will reactivate at that time.


Basically all of this stuff is just difficult to understand why the abilities aren't reactivating and being used by/played on (seems like the same thing) for ram's horn to then make them all cbi

if they don't become cbi i don't see why they aren't inherently cbi by game rule as the condition of the placement is cbi and the ongoing abilities are tied to it

for the record i'm pretty sure i understand how these cards are intended to be played, not sure they line up exactly with the rules but maybe that is subject to interpretation


TheHobbit13

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2017, 01:51:14 PM »
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Basically all of this stuff is just difficult to understand why the abilities aren't reactivating and being used by/played on (seems like the same thing) for ram's horn to then make them all cbi


They don't necessarily have to reactivate for the hero to be using BoR in battle. It was played in territory and used by the hero then. I don't see why the hero wouldn't still be considered as playing the enhancement or using the enhancement as far as Ram's Horn is concerned. This is consistent with what Kevin said about CD. If this was the case, however, the enhancements still cannot gain cbi by Ram's Horn retroactively. Now if the enhancement is played again in battle I think you could make a case for Ram's Horn making that cbi because it is now being played when Ram's Horn is up and there's nothing retroactive involved about Ram's horn granting it cbi. I guess I am beginning to see the relevance of whether or not the enhancements are played a again in battle yet notice no one is arguing that the whole enhancements is activated again, but only the effects of the trigger. I am pretty sure the entry in the REG about "attempting to activate the ability" assumes that you are attempting to activate the entire ability. Since you are only activating the trigger, and nothing allows you to attempt to activate the entire ability, I don't think that the card would be considered played then... but by that same logic you are still playing BoR in territory, even though some effects happen later, because you are allowed to play BoR under the rules that govern territory enhancements and are attempting to activate the ability by placing it on the table.


"An ongoing ability that persists through multiple phases can be interrupted or negated in
each phase in which it is active. If the negation ends with the phase, and the ongoing ability
persists to the next phase, then it will reactivate at that time."

This makes me think that you can negate the trigger on BoR actually, interesting..... And also the effect of the trigger. Even if the trigger yields instant abilities they are being activated in the battle phase and so would be able to be negated in that phase.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:58:18 PM by TheHobbit »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Ram's Horn/Placed Enhancements
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2017, 02:12:40 PM »
+1
Instant Ability

Any instant ability whose effects resolved in a
previously-completed phase, even during the same turn, cannot be interrupted or negated.
Effects that complete in a phase can only be undone in the phase they completed.


Anything that follows a colon in Redemption is dependent upon the condition before the colon remaining true


Elder confirmed, all armor and fruits are inherently cbi in the next phase by game rule.

This is not the ruling that has been given.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

 


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