Author Topic: dragon raid vs face down ec (Read 6631 times)

christiangamer25 · « **on:** August 13, 2009, 01:30:10 AM »

can dragon raid actually kill a face down ec on a site im getting mixed replys need something official please

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:42:53 AM »

Dragon Raid
Type: Site • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all evil cards in one site (not Lost Souls).

The default is that Dragon Raid targets evil cards that are in play, since it doesn't say otherwise. A face down Evil Character is out of play so it would not be targeted.

TimMierz · « **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:48:15 AM »

Since Dragon Raid specifies a location more specific than just "in play," wouldn't it go beyond the default? If that's the case, then it does handle face-down ECs.

My precedent is Lampstand of the Sanctuary. Because it specifies "not in battle," it doesn't use the default and instead protects things like the Land of Redemption and hand as well.

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:49:26 AM »

Good point. You might be right.

TimMierz · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:50:18 AM »

I may be crazy.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** August 13, 2009, 09:02:06 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2009, 08:50:18 AM

I may be crazy.

It's not fair to base your sanity, or lack thereof, on the outcome to this discussion.

TimMierz · « **Reply #6 on:** August 13, 2009, 09:19:35 AM »

I apologize for my hyperbole/references to songs I don't like.

The REG says: "Unless specifically stated, all special abilities apply to the characters in play, not out of play."
And: "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."

This much we know. Two questions then:
1) Does Dragon Raid's "in one site" count as something "specifically stated" and allow it to target out-of-play cards in a site?
2) Even if so, does the second quote mean that face-down cards are so special that unless Dragon Raid said "face-down," it couldn't target them anyways?

frisian9 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:52:49 PM »

This satisfies the "unless specifically stated" clause. A site is in a particular location, so you can target that character on that site. That is what DragonRaid was made to do

I guess I'm not 100% sure about whether the face down statement in the REG is applicable. Comments?

Mike

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:42:50 PM »

If the card is face down, how would you know it is "evil?"

I think that we need some type of clarification about what is allowed to target face-down cards other than cards that specify "face down."

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:52:02 PM »

I would say that according to what the REG says that unless Dragon Raid said "Discard all Evil Cards face up or face down in one site" that it cannot target and thus discard a face down EC.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 13, 2009, 08:42:50 PM

If the card is face down, how would you know it is "evil?"

I think that we need some type of clarification about what is allowed to target face-down cards other than cards that specify "face down."

If a card is face down number one they know it is evil so it is a trust issue, and two I don't believe there is any way a good card could be on one of your sites (except a captured hero who is a LS and no longer a hero). According to the REG a card must specifically target a face down card to be able to effect it. I think that seems clear enough, no? That is how I see it.

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #10 on:** August 13, 2009, 11:34:59 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2009, 08:50:18 AM

I may be crazy.

But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for...

I got your reference.

But I always assumed that since it specified ALL evil cards on a site, then face-down evil cards would apply. And regarding the question how would you know, well consider that the evil character is face down there due to a special ability, and you'll be aware of what the special ability says. Ergo, you'll be able to know if it's an evil card or not.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 13, 2009, 11:40:57 PM »

Yeah it is a sticky situation...it does say all evil cards, but according to the REG it seems that it would be labeled as a "face down" card not an evil card because the REG is so specific about how to discard face down cards. I can see it going either way...

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 13, 2009, 11:45:17 PM »

yeah to perg or not to perg ah the great purple site of doom lol

sk · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:08:04 AM »

When a hero is set aside with Ambush, they are able to begin a rescue because it is "known" that they are a hero. It think it is simply "known" that it is an EC on the site -- especially since I can't think of any cards that allow anything else to be placed on a site face down -- and thus is known to be a legal target for DragonRaid.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** August 14, 2009, 08:00:54 AM »

That I can agree with, but then the REG needs to be slightly adjusted to allow special circumstances that don't specifically say "face down."

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:38:17 AM »

right, or it just needs to be confirmed that dragon raid will not discard a face down evil character. Because as the text is written now and how the REG is worded Dragon Raid can't discard a face down EC.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:41:25 AM »

Quote from: sk on August 14, 2009, 12:08:04 AM

When a hero is set aside with Ambush, they are able to begin a rescue because it is "known" that they are a hero. It think it is simply "known" that it is an EC on the site -- especially since I can't think of any cards that allow anything else to be placed on a site face down -- and thus is known to be a legal target for DragonRaid.

Interestingly, the REG says that face-down ECs don't count for Silly Women.

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #17 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:47:16 AM »

Quote from: ejberkenpas22 on August 14, 2009, 11:38:17 AM

right, or it just needs to be confirmed that dragon raid will not discard a face down evil character. Because as the text is written now and how the REG is worded Dragon Raid can't discard a face down EC.

Actually, as the text on the card states, evil characters *should* be discarded, because it says "all evil cards." And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card. It just depends on whether the REG will be changed to allow those to be discarded or not.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:51:10 AM »

Well I know it technically should be discarded b/c it is an evil card. But the REG is so specific a discard ability MUST say "face down" for it to be able to discard a face down card and it doesn't matter whether or not you know what to face down card is or not.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:53:52 AM »

Quote from: FresnoRedemption on August 14, 2009, 11:47:16 AM

And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card.

The Silly Women ruling would suggest that "knowing" it is an EC is irrelevant.

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:55:00 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 14, 2009, 11:53:52 AM

Quote from: FresnoRedemption on August 14, 2009, 11:47:16 AM
And you're going to know that the face-down card on the site is an evil card.

The Silly Women ruling would suggest that "knowing" it is an EC is irrelevant.

Well, that was more-so to indicate that to the best of my knowledge, you will always know which alignment a face-down card is going to be due to the special ability on the card bringing the face-down card to the table.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:01:53 PM »

I agree that we will know the alignment, but that has no impact on other SAs for ruling purposes.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:13:16 PM »

Quote

Silly Women

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Character's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of all Evil Characters in play. • Identifiers: Generic NT Female Human • Verse: II Timothy 3:6-7 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)

That's why Silly Women is different. Face down cards are not in play. However, I would say that since Dragon Raid mentions a specific location (a site), it doesn't default to in play, and can target face down EC's. Though, I admit face down EC's might be a bit more of a viable strategy if it didn't.

SirNobody · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:25:03 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2009, 09:19:35 AM

The REG says: ... "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."

Does Dragon Raid specifically target "face down" cards? No. So can Dragon Raid target a "face down" card? No.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:07:15 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 16, 2009, 03:25:03 AM

Hey,

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2009, 09:19:35 AM
The REG says: ... "Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play. Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down."

Does Dragon Raid specifically target "face down" cards? No. So can Dragon Raid target a "face down" card? No.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

That is what I've been saying all along!

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Author Topic: dragon raid vs face down ec (Read 6631 times)

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