Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Isildur on October 05, 2011, 01:45:46 AM
-
So if I have Cov. of Death up and I play Doubt is Doubts SA negated when the card is placed on the table as a character thus stopping it from being discarded? Or is it because it was a dom when the SA went off that part is cbn?
Doubt
Type: Grim Reaper • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place in any territory. When played, this card becomes an orange brigade 0/12 Evil Character until end of turn. • Play As: Place in any territory. When played, convert this card to an orange brigade 0/12 Evil Character until end of turn. • Identifiers: Generic OT Genderless (not Human, not Demon) • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:66 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Ultra Rare)
Covenant with Death (FF2)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Pale Green/Brown • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate characters. Restrict players from playing Enhancements unless a character is opposed in battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Isaiah 28:15 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)
-
I don't think so because I am pretty sure Dominants can not be negated.
-
but it is no longer a dominant... it is a charachter. Just like an evil charachter is no longer an EC when converted...
-
but it is no longer a dominant... it is a charachter. Just like an evil charachter is no longer an EC when converted...
When it's ability was activated, it was a dominant. It doesn't have an ability as an EC.
-
but, if you had a card that discarded an EC, it would discard doubt. If you had a card that discarded an evil dominant, it would not discard doubt (while a 0/12 EC)... right?
-
So if I have Cov. of Death up and I play Doubt is Doubts SA negated when the card is placed on the table as a character thus stopping it from being discarded? Or is it because it was a dom when the SA went off that part is cbn?
The SA on the dominant CBN, therefore Doubt will still only be a 0/12 Orange EC for the turn that it is played. However, if Doubt survives the turn it is not discarded, but just stays in your territory as an evil card that doesn't do anything (unless it gets returned to your deck and reset).
I think this is the case regardless of whether Cov. of Death is active, though.
-
but it is no longer a dominant... it is a charachter. Just like an evil charachter is no longer an EC when converted...
When it's ability was activated, it was a dominant. It doesn't have an ability as an EC.
It does have an ability I can see it right there on the card.
-
but it is no longer a dominant... it is a charachter. Just like an evil charachter is no longer an EC when converted...
When it's ability was activated, it was a dominant. It doesn't have an ability as an EC.
It does have an ability I can see it right there on the card.
That ability only applies as a dominant though. It basically just adds a temporary identifier.
-
but it is no longer a dominant... it is a charachter. Just like an evil charachter is no longer an EC when converted...
When it's ability was activated, it was a dominant. It doesn't have an ability as an EC.
It does have an ability I can see it right there on the card.
It does. But it doesn't have an ability that activates as a character, which is what I meant. When it's ability activated, it was a dominant, and dominant abilities can never be negated. It would be similar to Michael playing Innumerable with CwD up.
-
Yes but a character can be negated in a later phase yes? Doubt would no longer be a Dom thus it would still be a character but not discard it's self.
-
Yes but a character can be negated in a later phase yes? Doubt would no longer be a Dom thus it would still be a character but not discard it's self.
"Until end of turn" is not a negatable ability. It's a condition of an ability that was CBN when played, so it remains CBN.
-
I have another question about why Doubt may not actually do anything. Why doesn't its SA activate when it blocks?
-
Yes but a character can be negated in a later phase yes? Doubt would no longer be a Dom thus it would still be a character but not discard it's self.
"Until end of turn" is not a negatable ability. It's a condition of an ability that was CBN when played, so it remains CBN.
I still don't understand how it's ability is still cbn when it is no longer a Dom and is somehow still cbn which doesn't make any sense in regards to how negating works. I understand that it used to be a Dom but saying it's like saying something used to be cbn so does that still mean it's cbn? No it's not cbn.
-
The only part of Doubt's ability that is still active when it becomes a character is the "until end of turn" restriction on how long it's treated as a character. Since that restriction was part of a CBN ability, nothing can negate it and Doubt ceases to be a character at the end of that turn.
-
The only part of Doubt's ability that is still active when it becomes a character is the "until end of turn" restriction on how long it's treated as a character. Since that restriction was part of a CBN ability, nothing can negate it and Doubt ceases to be a character at the end of that turn.
Says whom? There's nothing on the card or in the rules to suggest its full SA doesn't activate when it enters battle as an EC.
-
I have another question about why Doubt may not actually do anything. Why doesn't its SA activate when it blocks?
Yeah, that one I can't answer. Good thing no one except Rawrlolsauce ever uses it...
-
The only part of Doubt's ability that is still active when it becomes a character is the "until end of turn" restriction on how long it's treated as a character. Since that restriction was part of a CBN ability, nothing can negate it and Doubt ceases to be a character at the end of that turn.
Says whom? There's nothing on the card or in the rules to suggest its full SA doesn't activate when it enters battle as an EC.
I was attempting to clarify for Isildur on why Doubt in territory still ceases to be a character at end of turn even with something like Cov w/ Death active. Battle is a completely different ball of wax and my comment was not referring to it in any way.
If I had to guess on why it doesn't activate when entering battle, I would say that perhaps it acts like a placed card, and those don't reactivate in battle.
-
The whole point is that it's a character and when it enters battle it's a character. It's a character with a sa just like any other character so why doesn't it work the same way?
-
When the ability activates, it has an "end of turn" ability that cannot be negated (because it is a dominant). No matter what happens after that, whether or not it is an ec, Cov. with death cannot negate the ability because when it activated it was a domiant, "end of turn" ability which means it can't be negated until the end of the turn.
-
The only part of Doubt's ability that is still active when it becomes a character is the "until end of turn" restriction on how long it's treated as a character. Since that restriction was part of a CBN ability, nothing can negate it and Doubt ceases to be a character at the end of that turn.
Says whom? There's nothing on the card or in the rules to suggest its full SA doesn't activate when it enters battle as an EC.
The SA specifies that it activates when doubt enters play though.
-
Place in any territory. When played, this card becomes an orange brigade 0/12 Evil Character until end of turn.
The place is independent of the "when played."
-
Place in any territory. When played, this card becomes an orange brigade 0/12 Evil Character until end of turn.
The place is independent of the "when played."
But the "Until end of Turn" is Not. Until the "When Played" kicks in it's still a dominant, which cannot be negated and as has been stated cannot be negated is cannot be negated, it doesn't lose the CNB when it changes to a character
-
That's not what I'm talking about. You said all the other stuff turns off when it becomes a character. I say, why? In fact, I contend that it doesn't, and Doubts horrible wording has done it in even more than we realized when it was discovered putting it in another player's territory won't let him block with it.
-
That's not what I'm talking about. You said all the other stuff turns off when it becomes a character. I say, why? In fact, I contend that it doesn't, and Doubts horrible wording has done it in even more than we realized when it was discovered putting it in another player's territory won't let him block with it.
I don't think it necassarily turns off, just doesn't activate. the second part doesn't activate because it specifies that it happens when it goes in play. the first part doesn't activate because it would make the card useless. I block with it, and then I'm forced to place it in a territory. I can't choose a new blocker because I already blocked, so I automatically lose that RA.
-
Just because an SA is bad or doesn't do what was intended doesn't mean we get to ignore it.
-
I would read Doubt as becoming an Orange Brigade 0/12 Evil character that has no special ability, when a card "Becomes" something it no longer has the characteristics it had before (Doubt isn't a dominant nor does it have a special ability when its a character) However I don't think "Becomes" is a well defined special ability so I might be wrong.
-
But it does work as intended (to the extent we're currently talking about). Doubt is both a place card and gets turned into a character. Precedent says that place overrides character-ness. A Panic Demon placed on a hero doesn't activate as a character if the hero it's on enters battle. I don't think it's too much of a logical leap to assume that Doubt does the same thing. It was placed somewhere, and that place sticks unless another ability activates to supersede that (such as is the case if you block with a Panic Demon and band to the one on the hero, which works).
:2cents:
-
When the ability activates, it has an "end of turn" ability that cannot be negated (because it is a dominant). No matter what happens after that, whether or not it is an ec, Cov. with death cannot negate the ability because when it activated it was a domiant, "end of turn" ability which means it can't be negated until the end of the turn.
But say I use Simon the Magic Man and in battle place a abom in my oppononents territory does that mean it's always cbn? No I can still negate it the next phase. Your logic above does not make sense with how anything else is played in the game.
-
Actually, Abom would indeed be CBN. It entered play with a CBN ability, so as long as it remains in play it keeps the CBN status. CBN can neither be gained nor lost retroactively.
-
Actually, Abom would indeed be CBN. It entered play with a CBN ability, so as long as it remains in play it keeps the CBN status. CBN can neither be gained nor lost retroactively.
What???? This is new to me.
-
Actually, Abom would indeed be CBN. It entered play with a CBN ability, so as long as it remains in play it keeps the CBN status. CBN can neither be gained nor lost retroactively.
+1
This is correct.
-
I thought Simon the Magician was a Samaritan and not Greek. ???
-
I think Simon was just the first CBN can-play-black character that Isildur thought of.
-
I thought Simon the Magician was a Samaritan and not Greek. ???
Hobbit is correct. If Simon played Abom, it would not do anything except hang out in battle until the end. However, the others are correct that if he was Greek, Abom could not be negated later. A better example is if Michael plays Wheel Within a Wheel in battle, and places it on an angel. It would not be able to be negated later on.
-
One of the things that I love about Redemption is that it has great game-play mechanics.
And there's dominants...the Dopey of the card types.
:laugh:
-
this is wrong because if your right jordan your saying micahel can set up a coth with wheel that doesn't negate itself and is protected and under rules michaels cbn should stop after michaels battle this is potentially broken in an undonnable coth please fix.
-
this is wrong because if your right jordan your saying micahel can set up a coth with wheel that doesn't negate itself and is protected and under rules michaels cbn should stop after michaels battle this is potentially broken in an undonnable coth please fix.
Guess you'll have to depend on an actual battle, instead of dominants.