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Author Topic: Double redirect scenario  (Read 2855 times)

Offline The Guardian

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Double redirect scenario
« on: August 26, 2018, 01:58:11 AM »
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Had this situation come up in a game tonight.

Red Hero is blocked and plays a battle winner causing special initiative.

Crimson EC plays Treachery of Jezebel (The effect of the last enhancement played in current battle is interrupted and prevented or redirected to the Hero of your choice.)

EC redirects the battle winner for the #s (special ability of battle winner doesn't do anything since it was "if used by O.T. Hero").

Red Hero plays Gibeonite Treaty (interrupt and redirect an opposing enhancement) to redirect ToJ.

Now what?  Tried wrapping my brain around it...was unsuccessful.  :P

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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2018, 02:27:46 AM »
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Quote from: The Guardian on August 26, 2018, 01:58:11 AM
EC redirects the battle winner for the #s (special ability of battle winner doesn't do anything since it was "if used by O.T. Hero").

I'm pretty sure the enhancement is still being used by an OT Hero:
From the REG:
Quote
Redirecting an ability does not change which player played the card it is on or the character that used it, but does change which player carries out the effect.

And after the first redirect is carried out, the enhancement is just redirected again and the player who played Giebeontie Treaty chooses a target.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 09:30:30 AM »
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+1

I'm pretty sure the redirect doesn't change who "used" the Enhancement so requirements like "if used by an O.T. Hero" are met for purposes of carrying out the ability.

Redirecting a redirected Enhancement essentially cancels out the redirects and puts things back how they started.
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Offline dermo4christ

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 10:49:41 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on August 26, 2018, 09:30:30 AM
+1

I'm pretty sure the redirect doesn't change who "used" the Enhancement so requirements like "if used by an O.T. Hero" are met for purposes of carrying out the ability.

Redirecting a redirected Enhancement essentially cancels out the redirects and puts things back how they started.

Yes! That's what I thought. I still would have lost the game but I thought that's how it worked. So he redirected my counsel of Abigail and then I redirected his treachery which would make counsel work in my favor again, correct?
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 11:00:28 PM »
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It shouldn’t work because ToJ specifies redirect to the Hero of your choice.

If it was simply a redirect, I don’t see a reason that redirecting a redirect wouldn’t cause [counsel of Abigail in this case] to work again.

However, in this case, redirecting CoA would allow the hero to try to target a hero with an enhancement that only targets an evil card.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2018, 12:08:40 AM »
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Cousnel is redirected but the character that "uses" it doesn't change so the ability is carried out by the player of ToJ. However, since ToJ says "to a Hero of your choice" then I don't think it would have a valid target.

Gibeonite Treaty redirects ToJ to Gibeonite Treaty as the last enhancement card played in current battle and Gibeonite Treaty is then either (maybe) interrupted and prevented or redirected to a Hero. If it was redirected to a Hero then Gibeonite Treay's effect fizzles and either way ToJ moves back to redirecting Counsel of Abigail. I think the only way this works out in the favor of the Hero is if the "may be interrupted" allows the player to not interrupt and then simply prevent for no effect or if the "may" applies to that whole part of the ability and the Gibeonite Treaty player doesn't carry that part out at all.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 12:16:17 AM by TheJaylor »
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2018, 12:22:09 AM »
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Redirect doesn't change the order cards are played either, so a redirected ToJ still redirects Counsel.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2018, 01:23:01 AM »
+1
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on August 27, 2018, 12:22:09 AM
Redirect doesn't change the order cards are played either, so a redirected ToJ still redirects Counsel.

If I had been the judge to make the ruling, that was the way I was leaning, but I didn't feel confident enough to say for certain in a game I was involved in.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2018, 09:07:49 AM »
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Quote from: RedemptionAggie on August 27, 2018, 12:22:09 AM
Redirect doesn't change the order cards are played either, so a redirected ToJ still redirects Counsel.

But is Counsel able to target anything other than a Hero?

If so, why?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2018, 10:11:25 AM »
+1
"redirected to a Hero of your choice" is old (and confusing) wording.

If I play a card that says "Discard an EC" and you play ToJ, you don't get to discard a Hero, you simply get to carry out the ability (discarding an EC) and the #s count for your side of the battle.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2018, 10:57:46 AM »
+1
Quote from: The Guardian on August 27, 2018, 10:11:25 AM
"redirected to a Hero of your choice" is old (and confusing) wording.

If I play a card that says "Discard an EC" and you play ToJ, you don't get to discard a Hero, you simply get to carry out the ability (discarding an EC) and the #s count for your side of the battle.

+1

The ORCHID play as for ToJ is - You may interrupt the last Enhancement played in battle and prevent or redirect it.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2018, 11:25:34 AM »
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Quote from: Gabe on August 27, 2018, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on August 27, 2018, 10:11:25 AM
"redirected to a Hero of your choice" is old (and confusing) wording.

If I play a card that says "Discard an EC" and you play ToJ, you don't get to discard a Hero, you simply get to carry out the ability (discarding an EC) and the #s count for your side of the battle.

+1

The ORCHID play as for ToJ is - You may interrupt the last Enhancement played in battle and prevent or redirect it.

I know based on what the rules for redirect NOW are, and that the "intention" of the card is the above, but that clearly not what the card says.  So should this not be an errata?  That would also stop any further confusion, like above.  Again the rules of redirect are clear, but the card makes it seem like it does something it doesn't, so just a suggestion.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2018, 12:20:31 PM »
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My fault, I didn’t look it up on ORCID
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Offline dermo4christ

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2018, 08:10:08 PM »
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sorry guys I'm still confused. I was the guardian's opponent in this game. So, does counsel work again in my favor or no? I"m so confused!
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Double redirect scenario
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2018, 07:47:26 AM »
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Quote from: dermo4christ on August 27, 2018, 08:10:08 PM
sorry guys I'm still confused. I was the guardian's opponent in this game. So, does counsel work again in my favor or no? I"m so confused!
Based on what has been said, I think you still would, actually. Counsel chooses a target, ToJ redirects Counsel and a different target can be chosen, then Gib Treaty redirects ToJ.

This is the point where I'm confused. Since ToJ says "redirect the last enhancement" I would think that redirecting would retarget, thereby choosing Gib Treaty. In this case, you could just forego the "may" option of ToJ and I believe Counsel would still work. Otherwise it seems like ToJ and Gib Treaty would get stuck in an endless redirect loop if ToJ is the only EE.

Aggie (who is probably right) said that because Counsel was the "last enhancement" when ToJ was originally played then ToJ still redirects that. But since you are now carrying out the redirect of your own ability then you can choose a new target, such as the one you originally choose.

Either way, it seems like you get to use Counsel.
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