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Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 03:22:00 PMOkay I get it it's just one of those mom and dad things because I said so.I'm just trying to help, and if my explanations (and those of others) don't make sense to you, then I'm sorry that's the case. There's no need to be petty though.
Okay I get it it's just one of those mom and dad things because I said so.
Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 03:05:12 PMThis scenario is not actually a cascade negate situation, which is why at the end I clarified that it doesn't matter if the ability is CBN or not.I agree, and I make the same claim that GEs played via Reach stay in battle and are not negated when the Draw ability of Reach is negated.The two scenarios are exactly the same, which is why I'm glad you've taken the stance you have in this thread Ability A (Hypocrisy/Reach) takes cards in one location (territory/deck) and puts them in another location (hand/hand). Ability B then does something to a subset of those cards (shuffles heroes in hand/plays a GE from hand). Ability C then tries to negate Ability A. Ability A can't be negated - or at least, not all of the cards in the new location can be returned to their original location, since Ability B moved those cards somewhere else. Therefore, the cards moved by Ability B remain where they are.Seems to me that saying "The GE you played off of Reach stays in battle but is negated" makes no sense based on current Redemption rules. This thread is evidence of that. In fact, it no longer matters that Play abilities are CBI - all that matters is that a different ability moved that card somewhere else.* And no, the fact that there is a rule that states the GE in this exact situation is "Cascade-negated" does not support the position. The only reason this rule was created is either that the rules were misapplied in the past, or they've been changed/reinterpreted since then. Either way, that rule cannot defend itself, as that is circular reasoning (the conclusion is in the premises), akin to asking a company to audit their own books
This scenario is not actually a cascade negate situation, which is why at the end I clarified that it doesn't matter if the ability is CBN or not.
Quote from: Josh on July 06, 2018, 04:30:56 PMQuote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 03:05:12 PMThis scenario is not actually a cascade negate situation, which is why at the end I clarified that it doesn't matter if the ability is CBN or not.I agree, and I make the same claim that GEs played via Reach stay in battle and are not negated when the Draw ability of Reach is negated.The two scenarios are exactly the same, which is why I'm glad you've taken the stance you have in this thread Ability A (Hypocrisy/Reach) takes cards in one location (territory/deck) and puts them in another location (hand/hand). Ability B then does something to a subset of those cards (shuffles heroes in hand/plays a GE from hand). Ability C then tries to negate Ability A. Ability A can't be negated - or at least, not all of the cards in the new location can be returned to their original location, since Ability B moved those cards somewhere else. Therefore, the cards moved by Ability B remain where they are.Seems to me that saying "The GE you played off of Reach stays in battle but is negated" makes no sense based on current Redemption rules. This thread is evidence of that. In fact, it no longer matters that Play abilities are CBI - all that matters is that a different ability moved that card somewhere else.* And no, the fact that there is a rule that states the GE in this exact situation is "Cascade-negated" does not support the position. The only reason this rule was created is either that the rules were misapplied in the past, or they've been changed/reinterpreted since then. Either way, that rule cannot defend itself, as that is circular reasoning (the conclusion is in the premises), akin to asking a company to audit their own books The scenarios are not exactly the same. This one is about where cards end up. The one you bring up is about whether cards are negated or not.
The scenarios are not exactly the same. This one is about where cards end up. The one you bring up is about whether cards are negated or not.
I see what you're saying, but the difference is that Reach has two abilities (well three, but we're not worried about the ItB right now), one of which is negatable (the draw) and one of which is not (the play). Ergo Reach is actually moving the card twice (deck to hand and hand to play) whereas Hypocrisy is only moving cards once (play to hand), which is why these scenarios are not the same.Because the "deck to hand" is negatable, the GE is cascaded even though it remains in play due to the "hand to play" being CBI.
