Author Topic: Dominant initiative during phases? (Read 6401 times)

Jeremystair · « **Reply #25 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »

I would agree with you if hypocrisy targeted two locations my hand and the cards but it doesn't.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #26 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:05:17 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 01:00:47 PM

Let's break it down if hypocrisy Target's my specific card not a location. Then if I negate (undo) the targeting that hypocrisy did. It makes no difference where the card is hypocrisy untargets them and puts them back to the place they were.

You're reading more into target that what it actually means. Negate undoes the whole special ability and the special ability of Hypocrisy is:

Move [target] from play to hand.

Therefore, negating Hypocrisy causes the following to happen:

Move [target] from hand to play.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #27 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:07:25 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 12:56:36 PM

Negate doesn't target anything except Hypocrisy and undoes what Hypocrisy did (put Heroes in a hand).

Undoing what hypocrisy did would be put heroes in play

The Guardian · « **Reply #28 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:08:34 PM »

A negate ability targets another ability and can only undo that ability (and abilities that stemmed from that ability--i.e. a cascade negate). It does not undo other abilities that happened in between the original ability and the negate being played.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #29 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »

I understand that why would that make any difference Mayhem got to fulfill its ability and is completed. But now that I am negating hypocrisy, the opposite of targeting a card to return to hand would be Target at card to return to play.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #30 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:13:20 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 01:07:25 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 12:56:36 PM
Negate doesn't target anything except Hypocrisy and undoes what Hypocrisy did (put Heroes in a hand).
Undoing what hypocrisy did would be put heroes in play

Yes but only from hand.

The Guardian · « **Reply #31 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:14:21 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 01:11:46 PM

I understand that why would that make any difference Mayhem got to fulfill its ability and is completed. But now that I am negating hypocrisy, the opposite of targeting a card to return to hand would be Target at card to return to play.

No--the opposite of returning a card to hand from (location) is returning a card from hand to (location).

Jeremystair · « **Reply #32 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:21:59 PM »

I think the way you guys want this to work it would have to Target hand and the hero. The way I see it is hypocrisy is Target's a card to put it in a location. Not a specific one because it's not targeting a specific location. So if I undo the targeting of a specific card then i put it back in the location it came from.

The Guardian · « **Reply #33 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:47:33 PM »

No, while Hypocrisy does not target a location with its ability, it does state where the card is being returned to (hand). Just like a card that withdraws a Hero to territory does not target that territory, it simply states the location of where the targeted card ends up.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #34 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:55:08 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 01:47:33 PM

No, while Hypocrisy does not target a location with its ability, it does state where the card is being returned to (hand).

Exactly so if we negate (undoing the targeting of the cards, no matter where their location now) hypocrisy Returns the cards back to play.

SEB · « **Reply #35 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:55:28 PM »

I know Redemption doesnt exactly work this way, and im not quite sure the ramifications, but this is how I understand what is happening...

-When a card moves from one zone to another, it becomes a new identity. This way the game cant "confuse" an old ability after a new ability. Let's use the above example:

Hypocrisy moves target heroes(s) to a new zone, they are no longer treated as old identity (#1 in play) but a new identity (#2 in hand).Thus, you can play them the next time the cards could legally be played. If Hypocrisy should be negated, it simple undoes the ability (no longer #2), and put's them back down into play, and they regain their old identity (#1 hero in play).

But if Mayhem should be played before Hypocrisy is negated, the game put's the cards into a new zone, this makes them yet again a new identity (#3 in deck). Now when if Hypocrisy should be negated, the game is looking for cards that are identity #2, but the heroes are now #3.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #36 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:59:53 PM »

I asked earlier what exactly hypocrisy is targeting. If hypocrisy is targeting a specific card it does not matter its location. And as far as I can tell it is targeting a specific hero and returning it somewhere to hand in this case. But if it gets negated it targets those cards again and puts them back in play I don't see how their location matters anymore. Unless hypocrisy is targeting on both ends the hand and the hero. Which it is not as of right now.

SEB · « **Reply #37 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:04:41 PM »

It's targeting Heroes and specifying a location. The location is not a "Target" for resolution, but a requirement so the game knows where to put them (if it targeted, hand protection would be odd). If something changes that zone, when you go to negate hypocrisy, you negate as much as you can. Put heroes from the hand that were put there by the negated card.

If hypocrisy said to put the heroes into "Draw pile" and Mayhem shuffles, there would be no issue retrieving them once Hypocrisy was negated (unless they were now in the hand from drawing), because they are still in the same location the game put them.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #38 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:27:56 PM »

That would all make sense except for I haven't seen any rules that say what you're saying. As far as I know there are no zones. An exchange targets both ends of the exchange makes sense. Confusion targets a card that was named out loud and then searches for that card and removes it from the game. When something Target something it makes no difference it's location if it doesn't specify. And in this case it doesn't specify when it targets the card to be put back into play.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #39 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:33:57 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 02:27:56 PM

That would all make sense except for I haven't seen any rules that say what you're saying. As far as I know there are no zones. An exchange targets both ends of the exchange makes sense. Confusion targets a card that was named out loud and then searches for that card and removes it from the game. When something Target something it makes no difference it's location if it doesn't specify. And in this case it doesn't specify when it targets the card to be put back into play.

The issue is that you have a misunderstanding of what target means and it is causing you to misinterpret everything else. The only application of target is that it allows protect to work. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with how a negate undoes a given ability.

The Guardian · « **Reply #40 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:35:52 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 06, 2018, 02:33:57 PM

The issue is that you have a misunderstanding of what target means and it is causing you to misinterpret everything else. The only application of target is that it allows protect to work. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with how a negate undoes a given ability.

^Correct.

There is no "second targeting" of the Heroes when the negate is played. The negate targets the ability of Hypocrisy--nothing else.

Josh · « **Reply #41 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:48:03 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 02:27:56 PM

When something Target something it makes no difference it's location if it doesn't specify. And in this case it doesn't specify when it targets the card to be put back into play.

Negates target abilities, not cards. Negating Hypocrisy does not target the heroes that were initially placed in hand by Hypocrisy.

For example, a hand being protected from opponents (Crowds LS, Simon Zealot, etc) won't stop them from negating a card that forces you to put cards back in play from hand.

Josh · « **Reply #42 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:57:20 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 12:56:36 PM

However, if some of the Heroes are no longer there because another effect targeted them, then it only "undoes" Hypocrisy to the extent that any Heroes still in hand are put back in play. It actually doesn't matter that Mayhem is CBN--even if it wasn't, the negate would not undo the effect of the shuffle.

Careful, I've used this exact same logic to argue that Cascade Negate is silly, most especially Cascade Negate through a Play An Enhancement ability

To wit:

Quote from: Josh, in another thread, paraphrased via the logic above, referencing GEs like Reach of Desperation

However, if some of the ~~Heroes~~ cards are no longer ~~there~~ in hand because ~~another effect~~ a Play An Enhancement ability targeted them, then it only "undoes" ~~Hypocrisy~~ the Draw ability to the extent that any ~~Heroes~~ cards drawn by Reach of Desperation still in hand are put back ~~in play~~ on top of deck. It actually doesn't matter that ~~Mayhem is CBN~~ a Play ability is CBI--even if it wasn't, the negate would not undo the effect of the ~~shuffle~~ Played enhancement.

The Guardian · « **Reply #43 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:05:12 PM »

This scenario is not actually a cascade negate situation, which is why at the end I clarified that it doesn't matter if the ability is CBN or not.

If I play a "Withdraw a Hero" card followed by a "Discard a Hero in a territory" card to discard that same Hero, and then later you negate the withdraw card, the Hero stays in the discard pile because the discard ability was a completely separate ability that is not affected by the negate (cascade or otherwise). The negate can only result in the Hero going back to battle from territory (where the original ability sent it), it cannot bring the Hero out of the discard pile.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #44 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:22:00 PM »

Okay I get it it's just one of those mom and dad things because I said so.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #45 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:23:16 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 03:22:00 PM

Okay I get it it's just one of those mom and dad things because I said so.

If by mom and dad you mean the rules that define how the game is played, sure.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #46 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:25:52 PM »

I haven't really seen any of those rules yet.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #47 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:39:29 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 03:25:52 PM

I haven't really seen any of those rules yet.

We have shown them to you and explained them several times. I think the problem is that you seem to be listening with intent to disagree rather than with intent to understand. You need to let go of the misconceptions you have invented for yourself.

Negate: "A negate effect undoes active or completed abilities"

Hypocrisy: "Return any number of Heroes to owners hands"

Hypocrisy takes a specified group of cards and moves them to a specified location. Undoing that means taking the previously specified group of cards from the specified location and returning them to their original location.

The word "target" has no relevance to this discussion whatsoever.

The Guardian · « **Reply #48 on:** July 06, 2018, 04:10:37 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 03:22:00 PM

Okay I get it it's just one of those mom and dad things because I said so.

I'm just trying to help, and if my explanations (and those of others) don't make sense to you, then I'm sorry that's the case. There's no need to be petty though.

Josh · « **Reply #49 on:** July 06, 2018, 04:30:56 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 06, 2018, 03:05:12 PM

This scenario is not actually a cascade negate situation, which is why at the end I clarified that it doesn't matter if the ability is CBN or not.

I agree, and I make the same claim that GEs played via Reach stay in battle and are not negated when the Draw ability of Reach is negated.

The two scenarios are exactly the same, which is why I'm glad you've taken the stance you have in this thread

Ability A (Hypocrisy/Reach) takes cards in one location (territory/deck) and puts them in another location (hand/hand). Ability B then does something to a subset of those cards (shuffles heroes in hand/plays a GE from hand). Ability C then tries to negate Ability A. Ability A can't be negated - or at least, not all of the cards in the new location can be returned to their original location, since Ability B moved those cards somewhere else. Therefore, the cards moved by Ability B remain where they are.

Seems to me that saying "The GE you played off of Reach stays in battle but is negated" makes no sense based on current Redemption rules. This thread is evidence of that. In fact, it no longer matters that Play abilities are CBI - all that matters is that a different ability moved that card somewhere else.

* And no, the fact that there is a rule that states the GE in this exact situation is "Cascade-negated" does not support the position. The only reason this rule was created is either that the rules were misapplied in the past, or they've been changed/reinterpreted since then. Either way, that rule cannot defend itself, as that is circular reasoning (the conclusion is in the premises), akin to asking a company to audit their own books

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Author Topic: Dominant initiative during phases? (Read 6401 times)