Author Topic: Dominant initiative during phases? (Read 6390 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** July 05, 2018, 11:47:38 AM »

#1 If it's my opponents turn and he draws, complete his upkeep and moves into prep phase and wants to play a card in his territory after he is done do I have dominant initiative since he technically past dominant initiative by playing a card?

#2 Or does he have dominant initiative after he played the card in his territory?

The REG is a little vague about this. the only thing that I can find is that it says the active player has opportunity to play dominance first during each phase.

REG
Dominant

The active player has the first opportunity to play Dominant cards during each phase of their turn. Then the opportunity to play Dominant cards is given to inactive players in turn order. The opportunity to play Dominants can be passed multiple times if needed. When all players have declined to play a Dominant the game may move to the next phase or turn.

#3 after the beginning of the phase is over is it just slapjack again whoever dominant hits the table first?

The Guardian · « **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2018, 11:59:03 AM »

My understanding is that at any point during a player's turn, he as initiative to play dominants before the opponent. However, the opponent has the right to request dominant initiative before the active player moves to the next phase or takes another action that does not involve playing a dominant.

If I understand your scenario right, #2 would be accurate. The active player can play a card (for example Birth Foretold) and then he has the first opportunity to play a dominant (i.e. Son of God) before the opponent can play something like Vain Philosophy or Mayhem.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2018, 12:33:34 PM »

I have thought the same thing for a long time because it does specify during a battle but it doesn't specify during any other phase and I can't seem to find any ruling anywhere. So it makes me think it might not be played that way.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2018, 02:36:25 PM »

Here's another scenario if my opponent plays hypocrisy can he immediately play Mayhem before I have a chance to play Gamaliel's speech that sitting in my territory?

If that's how the rules play then what happens once Mayhem is completed and I used Gamaliel's speech after Mayhem how do we put all of those Heroes that he returned to my hand and some were Shuffle back in the place that they were?

By the way it is my opponents turn.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »

Great question!

The Guardian · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2018, 05:28:51 PM »

Yes, he can do that.

Any Heroes that were returned to hand and are still in your hand after the redraw would get put back down. Any that were shuffled into deck were shuffled by a CBN ability (Mayhem) so they stay in deck.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2018, 06:24:33 PM »

I understand that mayhem's shuffling ability cannot be negated. But if I negate hypocrisy then the cards were never in my hand so Mayhem could never have Target those cards for Shuffle. What exactly am I missing? I also have not seen any rules to answer my previously asked question.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2018, 06:27:53 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 05, 2018, 06:24:33 PM

I understand that mayhem's shuffling ability cannot be negated. But if I negate hypocrisy then the cards were never in my hand so Mayhem could never have Target those cards for Shuffle. What exactly am I missing?

Negate doesn't mean go back in time. That's a bad illustration some people (with good intention) have used to explain how negate works to new people. Hypocrisy moves cards from territory to hand so negating it would cause the game to undo that by taking any of those Heroes in your hand and put them back in play. It doesn't go through your deck looking for the other Heroes that got returned.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2018, 06:32:26 PM »

Putting the Heroes back in play would be trying to indirectly negate Mayhem which you cannot do.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2018, 06:48:25 PM »

I don't believe that negating hypocrisy is indirectly trying to negate Mayhem in any way.

REG Negate

A negate effect undoes active or completed abilities, or completing effects of abilities, and keeps the ability and its effects from ever completing.

REG Targeting

Targeting the next or last card played targets those cards based on when they were played in relation to the initial activation of targeting effect, regardless of the current location of those cards.

Reading the above rules and realizing hypocrisy targeted those Heroes in Play to be returned to my hand prior to Mayhem being played. I still don't understand why the heroes wouldn't be put back in play from the deck.

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2018, 07:05:45 PM »

Because before that negate happened, another ability targeted the Heroes and they are no longer in the location that Hypocrisy put them.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:47:30 AM »

A different question can hypocrisy return Jacob (who protects my hand and deck) back to my hand?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:49:01 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 11:47:30 AM

A different question can hypocrisy return Jacob (who protects my hand and deck) back to my hand?

Hypocrisy doesn't target the hand, so yes.

The Guardian · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:50:52 AM »

Jeremystair · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:52:59 AM »

Okay so it's only targeting that specific character or characters by name?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:55:09 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 11:52:59 AM

Okay so it's only targeting that specific character or characters by name?

That specific character.

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:02:49 PM »

Technically Hypocrisy target specific cards (limited to Heroes and chosen by the player who used it), not characters.

If a card was played that said "Return Jacob to hand" then all Jacobs in play would return to their owners' hands.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:10:31 PM »

So I'm targeting a specific hero and moving him to a location that I'm not specifically targeting?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:11:04 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 12:10:31 PM

So I'm targeting a specific character and moving him to a location that I'm not specifically targeting?

In the case of Hypocrisy, yes.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:47:33 PM »

So how is it that when I try to negate (undo the targeting of the heroes in my territory) hypocrisy it doesn't retarget them to be put back in play from the deck and put them back in territory location?

Josh · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:49:27 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 05, 2018, 07:05:45 PM

Because before that negate happened, another ability that cannot be negated targeted the Heroes and ~~they are no longer in the location that Hypocrisy put them.~~ did something to them that cannot be negated.

I think this better explains it. If Mayhem was not CBN, Hypocrisy should be able to be fully negated and the heroes returned to territory.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:52:39 PM »

I don't see how the shuffling of the cards has anything to do with this because it was Shuffle (Mayhem special ability was fulfilled) and it cannot be negated but that's over with. Negating hypocrisy retargets the specific cards wherever they're located and puts them back in play.

The Guardian · « **Reply #22 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:56:36 PM »

Negate doesn't target anything except Hypocrisy and undoes what Hypocrisy did (put Heroes in a hand). However, if some of the Heroes are no longer there because another effect targeted them, then it only "undoes" Hypocrisy to the extent that any Heroes still in hand are put back in play. It actually doesn't matter that Mayhem is CBN--even if it wasn't, the negate would not undo the effect of the shuffle.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #23 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:59:23 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 06, 2018, 12:52:39 PM

I don't see how the shuffling of the cards has anything to do with this because it was Shuffle (Mayhem special ability was fulfilled) and it cannot be negated but that's over with. Negating hypocrisy retargets the specific cards wherever they're located and puts them back in play.

Mayhem put the Heroes back in the deck. Mayhem is CBN. Therefore, a negate causing them to come back from deck would be negating something that is CBN.

In addition to that, the card you negated was Hypocrisy, which only moves Heroes to a hand so negating it shouldn't even be attempting to do anything but bring Heroes back from a hand.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #24 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:00:47 PM »

Let's break it down if hypocrisy Target's my specific card not a location. Then if I negate (undo) the targeting that hypocrisy did. It makes no difference where the card is hypocrisy untargets them and puts them back to the place they were.

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Author Topic: Dominant initiative during phases? (Read 6390 times)