Author Topic: Dominant iniative. (Read 1635 times)

Red · « **on:** May 06, 2017, 11:11:22 AM »

If I make a rescue attempt and my opponent plays mayhem without giving me a chance to play a dom, can I play a dom before it can activate?

kariusvega · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2017, 11:36:37 AM »

yes

http://www.cactusforums.com/rules-announcements/updates-to-dominant-timing/

Jonesy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2017, 12:03:59 PM »

What qualifies as "a chance to play"?

Master Q · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2017, 12:08:38 PM »

Quote from: Red on May 06, 2017, 11:11:22 AM

If I make a rescue attempt and my opponent plays mayhem without giving me a chance to play a dom, can I play a dom before it can activate?

Context?

Once they block, you'd be able to play AotL before they could play Mayhem.

I would say if they haven't blocked yet, they would be able to play Mayhem before you could play your dominants, because you've probably had enough time to decide if you want to play a dominant.

kariusvega · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2017, 12:19:13 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on May 06, 2017, 12:08:38 PM

I would say if they haven't blocked yet, they would be able to play Mayhem before you could play your dominants, because you've probably had enough time to decide if you want to play a dominant.

Xonathan · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2017, 12:42:33 PM »

I think regardless you need to ask for initiative when it's not your turn

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2017, 01:01:31 PM »

I disagree. To have to verbalize battle initiative is one thing, but it's unreasonable to expect to have to verbalize a request for dom initiative every phase or be forced to tip your hand when asking. With Doms, you can play them right away if you're planning on playing them so the need to verbally ask for initiative to play Mayhem is unreasonable in this case (unless the Mayhem was obviously slapped down as quickly as possible).

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2017, 01:51:18 PM »

Mr. Pol may feel differently but that is what the rules say.

It's not necessarily "tipping your hand" and can be used strategically to your advantage. Might be able to get an opponent to think you want to play Mayhem when you haven't drawn it (or maybe you don't even have it in your deck) causing the opponent to make suboptimal plays.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2017, 03:01:48 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 06, 2017, 01:01:31 PM

I disagree. To have to verbalize battle initiative is one thing, but it's unreasonable to expect to have to verbalize a request for dom initiative every phase or be forced to tip your hand when asking. With Doms, you can play them right away if you're planning on playing them so the need to verbally ask for initiative to play Mayhem is unreasonable in this case (unless the Mayhem was obviously slapped down as quickly as possible).

They changed that recently. Ikr? What was so bad about priority going to the person who was responding to their own action? I don't know. But yeah like Gabe said there's a strategy too it which is good, but to a certain extent it encourages dishonesty. Say my opponent draws their cards with no intention of playing 3 woes right away, before I could play Mayhem with priority if there was a pause, and three woes gets shuffled. Now when my opponent pauses and I play Mayhem he can say that he was going to play three woes and can with priority. Same goes if you play vain philosophy without announcing it, your opponent can play SoG whether he was going to or not. Moreover, the reality is that either way you are going to get to play your dominants before a Mayhem or Vain Philosophy all the time. The trick is when you don't know if your opponent is bluffing or not, but most people haven't adjusted to this new way of playing things so at nationals the people in the know can have some fun.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2017, 03:06:38 PM »

I agree in most cases that it is correct to ask. But what if you are not the active player and say the active player just starts performing actions that would be done after moving the current phase? Say for instance the active player starts trying to place things in their territory after doing any required upkeep actions and the draw phase, as the non active player are you allowed to tell them to hold on before they actually begin their precombat main phase to play a dominant? Since the active player seems to be trying to move phases it's safe to assume they have decided to pass their opportunity to play dominants during the phase they are trying to transition from, so is it fair for the active player to be able to move phases without declaring the intent to do so? I guess my problem with having to verbalize the intent to play a dominant as the non active player (whether you actually will or not) and not require the active player to verbalize that they are passing their initiative to play dominants in a phase as well as not verbalizing the shift in phases puts the non active player at a disadvantage to the active player when it comes to playing dominants. Yes you can try to use psychology to your advantage as the non active player but from a game standpoint there is still an inherent disadvantage.

Xonathan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2017, 03:31:30 PM »

Both players have to agree to move on to the next phase

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2017, 04:04:51 PM »

Quote from: Xonathan on May 06, 2017, 03:31:30 PM

Both players have to agree to move on to the next phase

It's really that simple. If the active player moves on and another player didn't decline the chance to play a Dom then you back up and let them play.

megamanlan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2017, 05:25:27 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 06, 2017, 03:01:48 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 06, 2017, 01:01:31 PM
I disagree. To have to verbalize battle initiative is one thing, but it's unreasonable to expect to have to verbalize a request for dom initiative every phase or be forced to tip your hand when asking. With Doms, you can play them right away if you're planning on playing them so the need to verbally ask for initiative to play Mayhem is unreasonable in this case (unless the Mayhem was obviously slapped down as quickly as possible).

They changed that recently. Ikr? What was so bad about priority going to the person who was responding to their own action? I don't know. But yeah like Gabe said there's a strategy too it which is good, but to a certain extent it encourages dishonesty. Say my opponent draws their cards with no intention of playing 3 woes right away, before I could play Mayhem with priority if there was a pause, and three woes gets shuffled. Now when my opponent pauses and I play Mayhem he can say that he was going to play three woes and can with priority. Same goes if you play vain philosophy without announcing it, your opponent can play SoG whether he was going to or not. Moreover, the reality is that either way you are going to get to play your dominants before a Mayhem or Vain Philosophy all the time. The trick is when you don't know if your opponent is bluffing or not, but most people haven't adjusted to this new way of playing things so at nationals the people in the know can have some fun.

You do know that you just ask to play a Dom, you don't have to say which one it is. Honestly, just asking "are you going to play a Dom?" Is all that's needed.

Watchman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2017, 11:10:48 AM »

What if I played two thousand horses, draw 2 cards but decide not to play an enh. And now my opponent (the active player) has initiative due to the numbers. And let's say one of those two cards I drew was SoG and I needed only one more soul to win. Could I play SoG right now or has dom initiative passed back the active player? The playing of doms during every other phase has been easy enough for me to understand, but when they are allowed to be played in battle has been more tricky for me to figure out as battle is more dynamic and crucial in regards to timing of plays and what is to be played and matters the most when it comes to winning or losing the game.

My personal view, and what others have expressed in tournaments I've hosted, is that to have to ask if I can play a dominant, or if you want to play a dominant, I find to take away from what the dominant was created to function as: a "sniping", game-changing, trump-style type of card. To telegraph a potential play could work to your favor or it may not (whether you're bluffing or if you actually do want to play a dominant). Overall, I don't like how there's any discussion in-game about when dominants can be played.

I think the dominant rule change has caused almost as much confusion as what it was intended to clear up. For a two player game I don't think it's needed; however, from what I remember reading about on the forum when the rule change was made I think it works best for a multiplayer game, which was what was causing most of the issues about when dominants should be played. This has been my experience playing and judging numerous games (2 player and multi) since the rule change.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2017, 11:30:32 AM »

It doesn't need to be confusing. It's really very simple and straight forward. The active player (aka the person who's turn it is) gets the first chance to play a Dominant after any change in game state. That includes a special ability (or series of related special abilities) completing.

In the last example given, if you chose not play off 2KH then active player gets the first chance to play a Dominant. Asking to play a Dominant doesn't necessarily indicate that you drew SoG. It could also mean you drew Grapes, CM, FA (CoW), VP, etc.

If you've ever played any other game, CCG or otherwise, this is how almost all games work - The active player is the one that gets to do things on their turn. Until recently Redemption has had a dexterity factor where the player who can slapjack their Dominant on the table first gets to play it. Now there is order to Dominant play.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2017, 09:33:32 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on May 07, 2017, 11:30:32 AM

Until recently Redemption has had a dexterity factor where the player who can slapjack their Dominant on the table first gets to play it. Now there is order to Dominant play.

It hasn't been a dexterity factor for a very long time. I know that you never really liked how the dominant "rules" worked, but whether they were written or not they were implemented. For example, if my opponent played false peace I could slap down mayhem right away but he would get the opportunity to play the SoG first. The new rules don't make this situation less "slapjacky", just would allow me to play mayhem after my opponents plays the SoG he searched for haha. But seriously, top-down rules are no fun.

kariusvega · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2017, 09:43:01 PM »

do i have dom initiative?

not anymore

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Author Topic: Dominant iniative. (Read 1635 times)

Red

Dominant iniative.

kariusvega

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Jonesy

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Master Q

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kariusvega

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Xonathan

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Gabe

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TheHobbit13

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Xonathan

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Gabe

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megamanlan

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Watchman

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Gabe

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TheHobbit13

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kariusvega

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