Cactus Game Design Message Boards

The healable cards aren't necessarily on the top. A character could be dced, then enhancements played, battle ends, enhancements go to dc pile then character is healed. At that point, while you might know where the character is, the heal doesn't target it as the "nth card from the top of the dc pile", it targets it as somewhere in the dc pile. So then you would have to look through the dc pile to find it, thereby creating the search.

It may not be a totally in line with how heal is meant to be played, but at least it's consistent. Then the REG doesn't have to say "An ability that targets a card in a deck...includes an implied search of the pile for the target, as long as it isn't a heal ability". That may be more in line with healing and perhaps a little more intuitive (though I think it makes total sense as is; if you are looking through a pile, you are searching), it makes it simpler. More complexity isn't what Redemption needs.

Healing was a seldom used ability until Peter was introduced. Even the first year after EC was released clay was not heavily played. It wasn't until PC that multiple clay offenses became viable. Now Peter sees much more play, meaning that healing sees much more play.

Similarly, HSR has not always been a restrict ability (although it has for a few years now). It also wasn't heavily played in the past because draw was the acceleration of choice. As more draw counters have been printed and better search abilities have been introduced players start using more search. As a result we see an increase in HSR use.

Now the two have met and we come to the realization that a search of the discard pile is required to target a Hero that has been sent there. The REG does currently state that healing requires a target (and that target must be healable). While it isn't explicitly stated in the REG that healing a character in the discard pile requires a search, it will be added to bring clarity.

In order to target a card in the discard pile you must search the discard pile. Search is what happens when you look through an entire location (deck or discard pile) and perform an action to a card in that location. Look is used when a subset of a location is targeted (such as the top X cards).

I'm not a fan of how powerful HSR has become and how it stops people from using their cards. But we must have top down consistent rules across the board. We cannot make a squishy ruling about healing in the discard pile based on how we want cards to work.

A few months from now there will be more and better ways to deal with cards like HSR. Until then, Peter is still a very strong card.

My clay Hero was discarded in battle. I have Peter (EC) in my territory. During my discard phase I want to heal the discarded Hero. Will that trigger my opponent's Music Leader?

If the only hero in battle is being discarded, can Peter, brass serpent,...etc ever heal during the battle phase? I ask because the following quote from the Redemption wiki (I assume there is language close to this in the REG?) seems to imply that there is such a thing as healing a character that is pending discard. If so, then  HSR would not stop Peter's healing in the battle phase, because the hero is being targeted outside of the discard pile unless, of course, the hero is immediately discarded after the discard ability completes.  As opposed to the lone hero dying, battle phase ending, and Peter trying in vain to heal through HSR in the discard phase. Is pending discard a thing?

Default Conditions
"
A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable."

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Heal

i agree with these two guys, really glad they found the 'is about to be discarded'

in this way heal originally seems to have an instead

The Wiki is unofficial and should not be quoted as if it was the REG. The quoted portion does not exist in the REG at all. Instead the REG says:

Quote from: REG>Heal>Clarifications

The phrase “being discarded”, “about to be discarded” or “recently discarded” (recently meaning previously in the same turn) all refer to a character that has been discarded by a special ability or game rule.

that's interesting that the reg and wiki are different but I guess I disagree with the reg on that and feel it should be revisited. It's very counterintuitive to me and causes confusion. Not only that but it would solve the hsr issue at least for healing. Still though like I mentioned what truly constitutes a "search" vice viewing. The Wiki states "A search ability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or set of cards." So is that saying anything that needs to view those locations is a search otherwise it's not searching? Like uzzah? Is that a search? By this also wouldn't music leader trigger off heal then as currently ruled? What about Kidron Valley do you have to search for the card cause you have to view the artifact pile? I'm mostly just curious and confused to the extent of what searching is vice viewing and what abilities then have searches implied.

I actually have another question. It revolves around divination  (TP). It's a look ability but is it a search. The last post I saw on the card when I looked it up seemed to imply that it wasn't, however the wiki lists it as a search effect. So is divination a search effect? If so is it because look has an implied search or is it just the way divination works? If look doesn't have an implied search then can this be precedent for something like heal as to limit the non-intended interaction for cards like hsr effecting searching? Just something I thought about that might be applicable.

I thought that was the case with divination but there wasn't a reg entry stating it was a search so I was curious as to why the Wiki did. As for the search entry and music leader.here is the reg entry.

General Description
A search ​ability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards.
How to Play
A search​ ability targets the deck, discard pile, or Artifact pile viewed by the player who used the ability, as well as the
card(s) that the player performs the action with.
A searcGeneral Description
A search​ability allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards.
How to Play
A search​ability targets the deck, discard pile, or Artifact pile viewed by the player who used the ability, as well as the
card(s) that the player performs the action with.
A search​ability targets the set of cards that are to be searched.
A search​ability is instantaneous.
Default Conditions
● When a deck is searched, shuffle the deck after the search.
● If a search​ability states what to search “for” but does not say what to do with that card, then the card should be
taken into the player’s hand.
Special Conditions
● If a search​ability targets a specific type of card, reveal​the targeted card before performing any other action with
that card.
● Regardless of whether a search ​is mandatory or optional, a player has the choice to fail any search ​they control,
and is not required to select a valid target, even if one exists. However, if a search ​of deck is mandatory, or an
optional search ​of deck is performed, the deck must still be shuffled.search ​ability targets the set of cards that are to be searched.
A search​ ability is instantaneous.
Default Conditions
● When a deck is searched, shuffle the deck after the search.
● If a search​ability states what to search “for” but does not say what to do with that card, then the card should be
taken into the player’s hand.
Special Conditions
● If a search​ability targets a specific type of card, reveal​the targeted card before performing any other action with
that card.
● Regardless of whether a search ​is mandatory or optional, a player has the choice to fail any search ​they control,
and is not required to select a valid target, even if one exists. However, if a search ​of deck is mandatory, or an
optional search ​of deck is performed, the deck must still be shuffled.

The reason i brought up the music leader is due to the initial wording of this anything that "allows a player to view a deck, discard pile, or Artifact Pile to perform an action with a specific card or
set of cards." Would be a search ability not just a search effect because the reg defines the action not as a search effect but as a search ability. That's all I was saying. Now I'm not saying that hsr triggers it and I'm also not stating that a search ability that is stopped by hsr also triggers it. I was just trying to say that according to how heal is currently being viewed if it isn't being stopped by hsr (which I don't think it should in the first place) then music leader would trigger. Am I correct here or am I missing something?

Thanks for the clarification. I know I've mostly been posing alot of questions. There's just alot that seems to be gray area that unless you know the ruling is unclear. The one thing that I'm really curious to know is does heal truly have an inherent search and if so is it only conditional to the discard pile? The reg currently doesn't state this that I'm aware of. Also what is the definitional difference between a look and a search?

yeah could heal possibly be an instead?

That's what I was thinking.

for example the new covenant can be under decked 'at any time' to heal, so is this an instead because that's how i've always seen it played if the nt hero was matyred they play new covenant and heal them same thing if they got wrathed

I understand what you are trying to imply about interrupt the battle but, maybe I'm wrong, but this isn't like SI where there is a pending ability.  Uzzah triggers then angel's sword triggers (with Uzzah clearly in the discard pile then Striking Herod tries to trigger afterword.  If this chain of events is correct I would argue that you can't pull Uzzah out of the discard through HSR.  But please correct me if I'm wrong!

Work has been insane for me for awhile, but I'll try to catch up on this thread...

so assyrian survivor cannot capture itself to opponents land of bondage if it was shuffled or under decked through Nazareth or discarded by death of unrighteous through hsr? So basically Peter's heal and love are now shut down by hsr? Was it played this way in the past or is this a new ruling now?

To the first part, there is no search actually being performed there.  Survivor has an "instead" ability on it, so it actually goes to opponent's LoB "instead" of wherever it goes when it is being defeated.  Absolutely nothing to do with the situation here, and no searches.

To the second part, I'm not aware of Heal to discard coming up before, but it is the correct ruling based on the current rules, as Gabe has mentioned.

that's interesting that the reg and wiki are different but I guess I disagree with the reg on that and feel it should be revisited. It's very counterintuitive to me and causes confusion.

That part of the REG was intentionally changed in 3.0.0.  We were very intentional to remove any sort of implication that Heal can somehow pause the game, and I doubt that we would add confusion back into the game by allowing that to mean anything different again.

I think the reg is allowing one to make the assumption that as soon as a discard ability is played, a character is discarded, which is not what happens. In the event you have a Herod's temple, you would effectively be having to search your discard pile to instead the discard, am I right? I think this is where heal originally had an instead which allowed the characters being healed to never need to be searched for since they were healed instead of going to dc.

I've almost always seen healing with Peter as an instead to ever being discarded

Well, it is not an instead, so that would not be a correct series of events.  When a discard ability is resolved, the character is discarded.  Herod's Temple is an instead, and it happens instead of the discard, which never happens due to the way instead works.  These are not comparable situations, just like Survivor is not comparable.

I understand what you are trying to imply about interrupt the battle but, maybe I'm wrong, but this isn't like SI where there is a pending ability.  Uzzah triggers then angel's sword triggers (with Uzzah clearly in the discard pile then Striking Herod tries to trigger afterword.  If this chain of events is correct I would argue that you can't pull Uzzah out of the discard through HSR.  But please correct me if I'm wrong!

Uzzah completes, then AS completes, then SH triggers, yes.  But there is no search.  ItB interrupts the last card played, if played by an opponent.  This interrupts Uzzah, which undoes his discard; it never happened, at that moment, so he's in play for the discard to hit him.  At no point is there a search, implied or otherwise, because nothing is targeting a card in the discard pile.