Author Topic: Does 4D coin protect from RBD? (Read 9030 times)

The M · « **on:** April 12, 2012, 09:37:09 PM »

In game.
Does it?

Drrek · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2012, 09:42:57 PM »

I'm pretty sure it protects from the discard on RBD. I also think the cards are revealed and put back instead of drawn, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2012, 09:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 12, 2012, 09:42:57 PM

I'm pretty sure it protects from the discard on RBD. I also think the cards are revealed and put back instead of drawn, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Not sure on the second part, but anything that protects cards in your deck from discard protects them from RBD's discard, from the recent ruling on instead.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:00:09 PM »

Revealed LS's are put in play, and the other cards are put back on the deck.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:02:10 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 12, 2012, 10:00:09 PM

Revealed LS's are put in play, and the other cards are put back on the deck.

Most interesting...and making of the sense

How did that happen? I haven't seen much of that lately...

Very good, thank you for that

megamanlan · « **Reply #5 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:22:26 PM »

From my question on Draw Abilities that would be correct. RBD can't shoot them so they're not insteaded. But wouldn't they then go to their intended target?

Drrek · « **Reply #6 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:24:53 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on April 12, 2012, 10:22:26 PM

From my question on Draw Abilities that would be correct. RBD can't shoot them so they're not insteaded. But wouldn't they then go to their intended target?

If you are asking why they don't go to hand after being revealed, its because RBD says cards that would be drawn are revealed and discarded instead. The draw is always insteaded (unless your deck is protected entirely from RBD by something like Simon the Zealot), so they are just revealed (lost souls go into play by the RBD ability) and then they go back because the draw ability was still insteaded.

Praeceps · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:25:40 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on April 12, 2012, 10:22:26 PM

From my question on Draw Abilities that would be correct. RBD can't shoot them so they're not insteaded. But wouldn't they then go to their intended target?

No because RDC only protects from the discard. the Instead still happens, since the ability isn't being protected, just the pile. So you go to draw but instead you have to reveal and discard. But you can't discard so you do what you can and just reveal.

megamanlan · « **Reply #8 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:37:31 PM »

Oh, I see. That makes sense then.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2012, 04:59:35 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 12, 2012, 10:00:09 PM

Revealed LS's are put in play, and the other cards are put back on the deck.

Wait a minute! We just had a big argument about this. I supported ruling it this way, but I was told, after a very lengthy discussion, that all the elders were in agreement on "Instead" working like, "if X would happen, do Y to undo/stop X from happening." Don't get me wrong, I am all for your solution, but I like contradictions even less.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2012, 05:00:37 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 15, 2012, 04:59:35 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 12, 2012, 10:00:09 PM
Revealed LS's are put in play, and the other cards are put back on the deck.
Wait a minute! We just had a big argument about this. I supported ruling it this way, but I was told, after a very lengthy discussion, that all the elders were in agreement on "Instead" working like, "if X would happen, do Y to undo/stop X from happening." Don't get me wrong, I am all for your solution, but I like contradictions even less.

I'm not exactly sure what your complaint is.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2012, 05:19:27 PM »

There was just a big thread about this very question, and the end result (which I was told was consensus among elders--that's either a lie or a consensus can be reached without very prominent elders even knowing about it) was that 4DC would allow you to draw through RBD. Now an elder is saying that RBD stunts the draw.

Drrek · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2012, 06:30:16 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 15, 2012, 05:19:27 PM

There was just a big thread about this very question, and the end result (which I was told was consensus among elders--that's either a lie or a consensus can be reached without very prominent elders even knowing about it) was that 4DC would allow you to draw through RBD. Now an elder is saying that RBD stunts the draw.

I don't think that was ever said (though I could be wrong), I believe what was said was that Simon the Zealot lets you draw through RBD, because it completely protects the deck.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2012, 06:36:35 PM »

I was told Instead was functionally do X and if so, do not do Y. If you couldn't do all of X, the original ability carried out.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:00:52 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 15, 2012, 06:36:35 PM

I was told Instead was functionally do X and if so, do not do Y. If you couldn't do all of X, the original ability carried out.

From what I can gather, the discard isn't a part of the instead, only the reveal is.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:03:30 PM »

lp670sv · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:06:22 PM »

He has a a point the second part of the ability only tells you what do to with the revealed cards not instead discard them.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:11:19 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on April 15, 2012, 07:06:22 PM

He has a a point the second part of the ability only tells you what do to with the revealed cards not instead discard them.

This, basically. I hadn't looked at it like this before, but from what I can see now, there are three separate things going on here. First, the cards drawn are, instead of being drawn, revealed, and that's the only part of the instead. Then a place ability (targeting any Lost Souls drawn), and then a discard ability (targeting non-Lost Souls). I'm not saying this is definitely how it is, but it can definitely be interpreted that way, especially since the place and discard abilities are in a different sentence than the instead.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:18:32 PM »

It seems to me that the Discard is part of the reveal and therefore part of the instead, since without the reveal there can be no Discard, just as any search ability is part of a discard/tutor from deck ability since without the search there cannot be the other. I suppose I could see it the other way, but was that the reason for the good Professor's ruling?

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:56:19 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 15, 2012, 07:18:32 PM

It seems to me that the Discard is part of the reveal and therefore part of the instead, since without the reveal there can be no Discard, just as any search ability is part of a discard/tutor from deck ability since without the search there cannot be the other. I suppose I could see it the other way, but was that the reason for the good Professor's ruling?

Reveal and discard are separate, and one can happen even if the other is protected against. DoU has a discard an shuffle ability, but one is not dependent on the other, just like in this case. You can have a reveal without the discard by the wording on the card and game rule.

Red · « **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2012, 09:09:24 PM »

The instead results in the discard. if you can't discard you shouldn't be able to instead imo. It would be consistent with how they ruled when you instead a cost ability.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2012, 09:18:11 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 15, 2012, 09:09:24 PM

The instead results in the discard. if you can't discard you shouldn't be able to instead imo. It would be consistent with how they ruled when you instead a cost ability.

The problem with that idea is that you can still do the reveal off of the instead. It is only if everything the instead ability does is protected against that the original action occurs by the rules of instead.

You can still do something with the instead, so that much happens, basically.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2012, 09:22:04 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 15, 2012, 09:09:24 PM

The instead results in the discard. if you can't discard you shouldn't be able to instead imo. It would be consistent with how they ruled when you instead a cost ability.

Either way it's decided it's still consistent. The question is whether the discard/place part of RBD is part of the actual instead, and there's a pretty solid argument for both sides.

megamanlan · « **Reply #23 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:33:04 PM »

Revealing cards doesn't mean they go back to Deck. I would say that if the Discard is stopped, the ability doesn't give any provision to put it back on Deck.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:40:43 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on April 15, 2012, 10:33:04 PM

Revealing cards doesn't mean they go back to Deck. I would say that if the Discard is stopped, the ability doesn't give any provision to put it back on Deck.

Actually, unless something else happens to them, revealed cards do go back to the deck. Revealed LS are put in play by the ability, but if they are protected from discard, then they go back to deck. This is how all reveals work.

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Author Topic: Does 4D coin protect from RBD? (Read 9030 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy