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Author Topic: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?  (Read 9065 times)

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2012, 05:17:54 PM »
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Quote
You're mixing up X, Y, and cost/benefit.

There is no cost benefit
You're wrong. Cost/benefit is exactly how instead works.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2012, 05:20:24 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 18, 2012, 05:17:54 PM
Quote
You're mixing up X, Y, and cost/benefit.

There is no cost benefit
You're wrong. Cost/benefit is exactly how instead works.

The Reveal is what happens as a result of the Instead.  The rest of the ability just tells you what to do with those cards (which can be protected against as normal).

No matter how you define it, it is the Reveal that happens Instead of the draw.  As with every Reveal card though, it specifies how to handle those cards.

What you're saying is not applicable to this case.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
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Herod's Temple.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2012, 05:26:10 PM »
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Oh, I see why you're confused. We stopped talking about what you're talking about a little while ago.

For the last time, the question here is about whether the discard is part of the instead requirements, and without a ruling there can be no resolution.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2012, 05:36:15 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 18, 2012, 05:26:10 PM
For the last time, the question here is about whether the discard is part of the instead requirements, and without a ruling there can be no resolution.

I am talking about that.  I am saying that all cards to be drawn are Instead revealed.  The rest just defines what to do with the reveal.

And the current ruling was determined in a different thread and given again in this thread by an elder:

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 12, 2012, 10:00:09 PM
Revealed LS's are put in play, and the other cards are put back on the deck.

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 17, 2012, 03:45:38 PM
FWIW, it is my interpretation that RBD's reveal is the only "instead" ability. The discard/put in play instructs you as to what to do after the reveal.

So there is the current ruling you are looking for, in line with what I have said.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2012, 05:37:50 PM »
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One Elder giving an opinion does not make a ruling.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2012, 05:42:33 PM »
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It is consistent with everything stated by multiple elders in multiple threads that have since ceased being argued.  Haven't seen any dissent on this.  Ask them for a different ruling if you disagree.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
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Quote from: Redoubter on April 18, 2012, 05:42:33 PM
It is consistent with everything stated by multiple elders in multiple threads that have since ceased being argued.  Haven't seen any dissent on this.  Ask them for a different ruling if you disagree.

Then please link me to those threads, specifically dealing with the issue of RBD's ability when used against 4DC.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2012, 05:48:20 PM »
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Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on April 18, 2012, 05:42:33 PM
It is consistent with everything stated by multiple elders in multiple threads that have since ceased being argued.  Haven't seen any dissent on this.  Ask them for a different ruling if you disagree.

Then please link me to those threads, specifically dealing with the issue of RBD's ability when used against 4DC.

You can do a search on this board.  I have to get going to playgroup.  There is nothing in any ruling to support your argument that if one piece of RBD is protected against the rest doesn't happen, nor that the Discard is the Instead instead of the Reveal.  Everything supports the exact opposite.  Have fun.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2012, 05:52:30 PM »
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Quote from: Redoubter on April 18, 2012, 05:48:20 PM
You can do a search on this board.  I have to get going to playgroup.  There is nothing in any ruling to support your argument that if one piece of RBD is protected against the rest doesn't happen, nor that the Discard is the Instead instead of the Reveal.  Everything supports the exact opposite.  Have fun.

The ruling on Herod's Temple actually proves me right. In order for you to instead the discard, you must have cards in your deck to discard. If not all of the ability completes, the instead doesn't work. I see no reason that the issue on protection is any different.

Furthermore, that still has nothing to do with the issue of RBD right now, which is whether the discard is considered a part of the instead or not.
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Offline megamanlan

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2012, 07:40:03 PM »
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That's not true, because the entire effect is tied to the Instead and thus must be part of the instead. The way that you are saying the card is, RBD would still Discard if it was protected from Reveal. But that is now assuming that they are 2 different effects. So your way would be I reveal them, put them back face-down (so it completes) attempt to put the LS's in play and Discard them. Which makes no sense.

The problem is that you are treating a card that has 3 components of 1 effect, and treating it as 3 completely seperate effects and using Convincing Miracle (which has more than one effect) to support that point, which it doesn't.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Does 4D coin protect from RBD?
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2012, 08:20:18 PM »
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Quote from: megamanlan on April 18, 2012, 07:40:03 PM
That's not true, because the entire effect is tied to the Instead and thus must be part of the instead. The way that you are saying the card is, RBD would still Discard if it was protected from Reveal. But that is now assuming that they are 2 different effects. So your way would be I reveal them, put them back face-down (so it completes) attempt to put the LS's in play and Discard them. Which makes no sense.

Actually, that works perfectly well. The reveal happens, and then the following place and discard abilities happen, with the (correct) assumption that those abilities are targeting the cards that were just revealed. Regardless of whether or not this is correct ruling, it's a perfectly valid interpretation of the way the card should be played. Even Pol, an REP who believes it should be played the other way, agrees that it's a valid way for it to be ruled. Simply dismissing it as invalid isn't a good argument anymore, because it's well established that it's fine, with at least one Elder agreeing that this is how it works.
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