Author Topic: Multiple "per game" Artifacts? (Read 4494 times)

Sean · « **on:** January 13, 2009, 03:00:24 PM »

If I have two copies of an Artifact that has a "per game" clause, Holy Grail for example, what happens to the second copy when I use up the first copy?

Sean

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:11:04 PM »

It sits there and looks oh so pretty I believe.

Sean · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:22:36 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 13, 2009, 03:11:04 PM

It sits there and looks oh so pretty I believe.

Hmm, does that make sense? If you have to discard the "used up" copy, then shouldn't the other copy also have to be discarded? I'm all for Uzzah fodder but that just doesn't make sense.

Sean

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:30:18 PM »

I asked a similar question only a few days ago:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14089.0

Sean · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:33:44 PM »

Thanks, but that doesn't address additional copies.

Sean

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:36:50 PM »

Quote from: Sean on January 13, 2009, 03:22:36 PM

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 13, 2009, 03:11:04 PM
It sits there and looks oh so pretty I believe.
Hmm, does that make sense? If you have to discard the "used up" copy, then shouldn't the other copy also have to be discarded? I'm all for Uzzah fodder but that just doesn't make sense.

Sean

I'm not 100% sure really, its a good question

everytribe · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:05:20 PM »

I'm 100% sure. you don't have to discard the other copy. At least in MN.

DaClock · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:44:02 PM »

Quote from: everytribe on January 13, 2009, 11:05:20 PM

I'm 100% sure. you don't have to discard the other copy. At least in MN.

You don't in Oregon/Washington either. Or in Ohio. If I'm mistaken about Ohio then I cheated my way to 3rd place in T2 last year.

SirNobody · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:26:49 AM »

Hey,

I'm not entirely sure anymore that you would have to discard the first copy.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:34:32 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on January 14, 2009, 12:26:49 AM

Hey,

I'm not entirely sure anymore that you would have to discard the first copy.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Considering your knowledge of the rules and the apparent contradiction in your statement, I'm interested to hear you elaborate.

mn777saint · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:04:06 PM »

yes please elaborate!

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:15:12 PM »

Hey,

The rulebook says, "Some artifacts state that they may only be used a limited number of times. When this use limit is reached, the artifact is immediately discarded and therefore may not be negated."

Holy Grail has a functional limit on the number of times it can be used, but it doesn't actually have a limit on the number of times it can be used per card (which I believe is what that quote from the rulebook refers to). If I use one copy of Holy Grail once, the second copy of Holy Grail in my deck now has a functional limit of one use, but that's only a functional limit not a real limit, had I not used the first Holy Grail I could use the second one a second time. If both my first and second copy of Holy Grail get used once, then the third copy of Holy Grail in my deck has a functional limit of zero uses even though obviously the card doesn't have a real limit of zero uses.

Consider an imaginary ability that allowed you to search your opponent's artifact pile, select one artifact there and put it in your artifact pile (thus gaining control of it). Now just as the functional limit can be decreased it can also be increased. If I use my first copy of Holy Grail once, and then my opponent uses the imaginary ability to steal it they could use it two more time right? So now the functional limit is three uses. And at that point, what is to say that I can't use the imaginary ability as well, steal my Holy Grail back and use it a fourth time?

Holy Grail doesn't have a real/hard limit on the number of times the card can be used, there's just a functional limit. It's just that we've been treating the functional limit as a hard limit and discarding it after the second use when we really should be leaving it in our artifact pile to be used again (despite the fact that there are no cards currently in existence that would allow it to be used again).

...or something like that...

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

michael/michaelssword · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:22:40 PM »

to sort of follow up if my Jepthath is d/ced and I bring him back with CoF can I use his SA again?

The Guardian · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:25:26 PM »

Nope.

With cards like Holy Grail, I think it would just cause problems to have discard all "extra" copies once the two uses are up. When would a person discard the extras? Right away even if they are in the draw pile still? When they draw them? Do they get to draw an extra card then? It just seems like it makes for a bigger headache to be forced to discard them all.

michael/michaelssword · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:26:52 PM »

aw Jepthath would be such a nice abuse character for my TGT deck

oh teh well

Sean · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:59:10 PM »

If we discard an Artifact when it is used up then I don't see any reason why we would not discard additional copies that are also used up by default. You either discard them all or let them all stay. That is the most consistent.

Sean

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:16:26 PM »

Ok, so how do you suggest dealing with multiple copies still in deck?

Sean · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2009, 07:20:52 PM »

Quote

Ok, so how do you suggest dealing with multiple copies still in deck?

If you discard the used up one then you discard the others. If you leave the used up one then you leave the others.

Sean

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2009, 07:27:01 PM »

That doesn't seem logical to search your deck to discard the other copies.

Kirk

Sean · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2009, 07:38:45 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on January 14, 2009, 07:27:01 PM

That doesn't seem logical to search your deck to discard the other copies.

Kirk

It makes perfect sense. If you discard one copy because it is used up then why wouldn't you discard a second copy that is also used up?

Sean

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2009, 10:58:27 PM »

It doesn't make sense because that distorts game rules for viewing a deck's contents or searching for a specific card.

Kirk

metalpsalm · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2009, 11:09:32 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on January 14, 2009, 07:27:01 PM

That doesn't seem logical to search your deck to discard the other copies.

Kirk

I agree, because they are out of play. Once they are drawn, they have no uses left and should be discarded

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2009, 11:13:22 PM »

Not should, can. You can put them in your pile all you want, they're just negated upon activation via their own special ability and previous conditions having been fulfilled.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2009, 11:26:35 PM »

Oh, they make perfect fodder for Uzzah abuse.

Godspeed,
Mike

Sean · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:03:11 AM »

Code: [Select]

Oh, they make perfect fodder for Uzzah abuse.
Yes, but if you're not going to discard the additional copies then you shouldn't discard the first copy either.

Sean

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Author Topic: Multiple "per game" Artifacts? (Read 4494 times)

mn777saint

michael/michaelssword

michael/michaelssword