Author Topic: Divination and Susanna (Read 5967 times)

Hanno102 · « **on:** January 18, 2012, 06:25:34 PM »

From the Reg:

Quote

Susanna:
Play As: Search the top X cards of deck for any one card. Holder may place it in hand. Place the rest beneath deck. Cannot be negated.

Quote

Divination:
Play As: If used by a Magician, search the top six cards of deck for one evil card and place in hand or add to battle. Place the rest on the top and/or bottom of deck in any order. Cannot be interrupted.

According to these play as, both Susanna and Divination are considered search abilities, and as such are stopped by Nazareth. Two questions:
1. Was this a recent change? I don't particularly recall it.
2. Wouldn't this technically be an Errata? I've always played, and been instructed to play Susanna as a reveal ability, getting around both Nazareth and Hezekiah's Signet Ring.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2012, 06:45:28 PM »

They're both actually look abilities. The REG is wrong.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2012, 06:50:02 PM »

What Sauce said. Disregard errata disguised as play as.

Red Wing · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:09:35 PM »

I agree with Sauce & Kittens.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »

I agree with Sauce, Kittens, and Red Wing.

As an additional question, who exactly was the person who wrote all these play-as'? I've heard about them for at least a year, probably two or three, and I've never actually heard the origin story. Did Bryon go crazy one day and type them all out while laughing maniacally?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2012, 07:17:19 PM »

It could be the result of a script gone wrong.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2012, 08:38:49 PM »

I think it's the product of trying to make the REG more searchable by adding the keywords to more cards.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2012, 10:08:07 PM »

Alex is correct. And when the Play As was added, Susy was considered a search ability, but it has since been clarified that search is only reserved for either the entire draw pile or entire discard pile, and only if you are searching for a card. If it's only a specific number of cards you are viewing (like Susy or Divination) or if you are just looking at the deck without shuffling (like John Promo) it's a Look ability, not a Search.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2012, 10:42:46 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2012, 10:08:07 PM

Alex is correct. And when the Play As was added, Susy was considered a search ability, but it has since been clarified that search is only reserved for either the entire draw pile or entire discard pile, and only if you are searching for a card. If it's only a specific number of cards you are viewing (like Susy or Divination) or if you are just looking at the deck without shuffling (like John Promo) it's a Look ability, not a Search.

If you take a card into hand per Divination do you have to reveal it?

Feel free to add four pages of discussion on this topic.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2012, 11:04:18 PM »

Yes.

I'm not going to get into the whole argument as to why one is a search and the other is a look + take ability.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:30:36 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 24, 2012, 11:04:18 PM

Yes.

Why?

We reveal searched for cards because of a game rule...

Quote from: REG

Instant Abilities > Search

Special Conditions

If an ability that is paired with a search ability targets a specific type of card, reveal the targeted card before carrying out the paired ability.

Divination--for example--is not a search ability nor is it paired with a search ability. Given that there is no similar reveal rule for "look" or "take" special abilities, you do not have to reveal a card taken into hand by Divination. Correct?

Quote

I'm not going to get into the whole argument as to why one is a search and the other is a look + take ability.

I accept that they are different abilities. Hence my question.

lp670sv · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 25, 2012, 08:30:36 AM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 24, 2012, 11:04:18 PM
Yes.
Why?

Because you have to prove you took the card you were allowed to and not, for example, SOG.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:37:43 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on January 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM

Because you have to prove you took the card you were allowed to and not, for example, SOG.

There is no rule saying you have to prove the card you took was allowed, that's only for searches. In fact, revealing it is actually against the rules I believe.

lp670sv · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:43:30 AM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on January 25, 2012, 08:37:43 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on January 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM
Because you have to prove you took the card you were allowed to and not, for example, SOG.
There is no rule saying you have to prove the card you took was allowed, that's only for searches. In fact, revealing it is actually against the rules I believe.

How is it against the rules to reveal it? What rule says you can't reveal cards?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:38:15 AM »

You can reveal in Teams, as long as it's universal.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:52:03 AM »

I was told you can't reveal even if it was universal. Multiple times, in fact.

STAMP · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:53:51 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 24, 2012, 10:42:46 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2012, 10:08:07 PM
Alex is correct. And when the Play As was added, Susy was considered a search ability, but it has since been clarified that search is only reserved for either the entire draw pile or entire discard pile, and only if you are searching for a card. If it's only a specific number of cards you are viewing (like Susy or Divination) or if you are just looking at the deck without shuffling (like John Promo) it's a Look ability, not a Search.
If you take a card into hand per Divination do you have to reveal it?

Feel free to add four pages of discussion on this topic.

Ooh, goody, another thread where common sense is thrown out with the bath water. Hold on! I need to go make some more popcorn and refill my soda.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2012, 05:18:56 PM »

By whom Alan?

I'm 99% sure that even if such a rule doesn't exist, the other Elders and I will create one for it. I know here in Rochester we've always revealed the Evil card that we grab. We did the same at Boston Nationals 2 years ago.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »

Oh, I didn't see Randall said teams. I know you can reveal in teams, I was talking about multiplayer (and I assume it would apply to 2p also). My apologies.

I have no idea, this was a few years ago. I want to say Bany told me that, but I'm not sure. I also know I also posted a thread on it, but I can't seem to find it. I did find YMT mentioning an appropriate section of the REG here, but he didn't link/quote and I can't find what he was referring to.

STAMP · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2012, 06:14:55 PM »

Wait, everyone!

I just had a brainstorm.

How about we just make a simple rule to reveal anything that comes from the deck? We're almost to that point anyway. Check me if I'm wrong, but I believe at this point drawing and exchanges(??) are the only actions that don't currently reveal...well, and the exception for Search and False Peace (and I'm enjoying the irony of the current rule now - reveal any card obtained with a search, except of course the card actually entitled Search, lol).

So whaddyathink?

I guess that might tip the tables on the current power structure, what with Rainman-types having the edge, but overall who could argue with such a beautiful solution?!?

I am completely serious.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:05:41 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on January 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 25, 2012, 08:30:36 AM
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 24, 2012, 11:04:18 PM
Yes.
Why?

Because you have to prove you took the card you were allowed to and not, for example, SOG.

No you do not. I pointed out the specific rule that makes the reveal required for searches. There is *no* comparable rule for "taken" cards.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 25, 2012, 05:18:56 PM

I'm 99% sure that even if such a rule doesn't exist, the other Elders and I will create one for it.

Why?

Quote

I know here in Rochester we've always revealed the Evil card that we grab. We did the same at Boston Nationals 2 years ago.

And for years and years we played that Everyman's Sword stopped site access abilities on heroes and that you could discard an angel to Chamber to satisfy I am Holy. Then it was pointed out that those plays was incorrect according to the rules. The fact that you have been playing Divination incorrectly for years is no reason to add a rule now.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:22:11 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 25, 2012, 08:05:41 PM

Quote from: lp670sv on January 25, 2012, 08:35:00 AM
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 25, 2012, 08:30:36 AM
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 24, 2012, 11:04:18 PM
Yes.
Why?

Because you have to prove you took the card you were allowed to and not, for example, SOG.
No you do not. I pointed out the specific rule that makes the reveal required for searches. There is *no* comparable rule for "taken" cards.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 25, 2012, 05:18:56 PM
I'm 99% sure that even if such a rule doesn't exist, the other Elders and I will create one for it.
Why?

Quote
I know here in Rochester we've always revealed the Evil card that we grab. We did the same at Boston Nationals 2 years ago.
And for years and years we played that Everyman's Sword stopped site access abilities on heroes and that you could discard an angel to Chamber to satisfy I am Holy. Then it was pointed out that those plays was incorrect according to the rules. The fact that you have been playing Divination incorrectly for years is no reason to add a rule now.

Your two examples are slightly diferent because they deal with specific card interactions. the divination situation is a case of player accountability.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:44:38 PM »

You always have to show the card you grab with divination.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:32:45 PM »

Divination requires that you take a specific kind of card (evil), therefore I agree with everyone that says that you have to show your opponent that the card you take is evil.

everytribe · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 25, 2012, 10:32:45 PM

Divination requires that you take a specific kind of card (evil), therefore I agree with everyone that says that you have to show your opponent that the card you take is evil.

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on January 25, 2012, 09:44:38 PM

You always have to show the card you grab with divination.

News:

Author Topic: Divination and Susanna (Read 5967 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Chronic Apathy

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!

TheHobbit13