Author Topic: Disobedient Mounted Otho (Read 4496 times)

Mageduckey · « **on:** May 14, 2013, 07:52:45 PM »

Emperor Otho has Namaan's Chariot and Horses equipped. I use Otho's ability to discard all cards in battle.

1) Do the horses interrupt/draw/play before the discard?

2) Say I play Balaam's Disobedience off Horses; since that grants CBN immunity, which protects Otho's ability, is Otho's ability then CBN (because of CBN immunity), or can my opponent still play an interrupt the battle+withdraw (or protect) to save their heroes?

Emperor Otho: You may discard a N.T. evil Enhancement from hand to discard all cards in battle.

Namaan's Chariot and Horses: Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a unique character, you may play the next Enhancement.

Balaam's Disobedience: Evil Character is immune to human Heroes unless an angel is in Battle. This ability cannot be negated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2013, 07:56:25 PM »

First, Characters cannot be protected from themselves. You cannot protect Otho from his own discard.

Second, while the discard is being resolved, the weapon must go off. The block is not finished until all character abilities, gained abilities, weapons, and triggers resolve. Horses would interrupt the discard, because by the rules of ITB it would interrupt any ability that is removing any of your characters from battle. Once Horses completes, the Discard reactivates (if it is able).

Third, protection does not mean you cannot be interrupted or negated, so nothing would be CBN. You can still interrupt/negate if the target is immune or protected.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:05:13 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 14, 2013, 07:56:25 PM

First, Characters cannot be protected from themselves. You cannot protect Otho from his own discard.

Second, while the discard is being resolved, the weapon must go off. The block is not finished until all character abilities, gained abilities, weapons, and triggers resolve. Horses would interrupt the discard, because by the rules of ITB it would interrupt any ability that is removing any of your characters from battle. Once Horses completes, the Discard reactivates (if it is able).

Third, protection does not mean you cannot be interrupted or negated, so nothing would be CBN. You can still interrupt/negate if the target is immune or protected.

First, I never said I was protecting Otho from his own discard.

Second, I thought that was what would happen but wanted to double check.

Third, as per the REG's Immune definition, Otho cannot be targeted by anything to which he is immune. That includes enhancements played with the heroes from whom he is immune. Since the immunity is CBN, an interrupt the battle (or negate an evil card) ability cannot stop the immunity, meaning Otho and his ability are still immune despite such an ability being used by the hero(es) in battle. I don't see how the hero(es) could negate the discard ability because it cannot be targeted (Otho is CBN immune).

Quote from: REG

A card that is immune cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card to which it is immune or on a card played on that card. Additionally when comparing the strength of one character to the toughness of a second character that is immune to the first character, the strength of the first character is treated as zero unless it is negative. All immune abilities are ongoing. Immune abilities target the cards that gain the immune status.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:14:33 PM »

Not sure what happened to your posts, but I'll try to help out with some answers at least

Quote from: Mageduckey on May 14, 2013, 08:03:54 PM

First, I never said I was protecting Otho from his own discard.

Sorry, I couldn't tell if you were or not, and it is a common question. Wanted to nip it in the bud in case it came up later, too

Quote from: Mageduckey on May 14, 2013, 08:03:54 PM

Third, as per the REG's Immune definition, Otho cannot be targeted by anything to which he is immune. That includes enhancements played with the heroes from whom he is immune. Since the immunity is CBN, an interrupt the battle (or negate an evil card) ability cannot stop the immunity, meaning Otho and his ability are still immune despite such an ability being used by the hero(es) in battle. I don't see how the hero(es) could negate the discard ability because it is CBN immune.

Quote from: REG
A card that is immune cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card to which it is immune or on a card played on that card. Additionally when comparing the strength of one character to the toughness of a second character that is immune to the first character, the strength of the first character is treated as zero unless it is negative. All immune abilities are ongoing. Immune abilities target the cards that gain the immune status.

Also from the REG:

"A negate ability interrupts all specified special abilities and prevents them from reactivating. A negate ability also prevents targeted special abilities from ever being able to activate."

"Interrupting an ability only undoes the completion of that ability's activation."

Neither targets the card. They target the ability, and it is a well-established rule that interrupt and negate can do so even if the card is protected or immune.

Praeceps · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:33:04 PM »

But not if Otho is immune to the character trying to play the negate. You can't negate Otho without negating his immunity first, as while he is still immune you can't target him. The fact that his immunity is CBN makes this a lost cause.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:34:48 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 14, 2013, 08:33:04 PM

But not if Otho is immune to the character trying to play the negate. You can't negate Otho without negating his immunity first, as while he is still immune you can't target him. The fact that his immunity is CBN makes this a lost cause.

That is not true. The rule is that interrupts and negates do not target the card, they target the ability. Abilities cannot be immune or protected. Therefore, you can interrupt/negate Otho in this scenario.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:36:02 PM »

Quote

Not sure what happened to your posts, but I'll try to help out with some answers at least

Sorry for the double post, the internet must have been misbehaving.

Quote

Neither targets the card. They target the ability, and it is a well-established rule that interrupt and negate can do so even if the card is protected or immune.

That makes sense. I was afraid that would be the case (targeting the ability instead of the card), but was hoping it wouldn't. At least I can have my cake and eat it, too - if they don't negate the discard, I win; if they do negate it, I'm immune, so I win.

------------

A different question but the same thread (simply to save space): Can I use a dominant or fortress (of appropriate alignment) in conjunction with Herod's Temple to protect an N.T. human? Multicolor enhancements (of appropriate alignment) can be used because they contain all the colors; dominants and fortresses are multicolor as well (at least in the box) - do they count as such for Herod's Temple?

Herod's Temple: If your N.T. human is discarded by a special ability used by an opponent, you may discard a card of matching brigade from hand and the top X cards of your deck instead. Put Lost Souls in play instead.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:39:58 PM »

Dominants and Fortresses do not have brigades, so they cannot be used for HT.

Drrek · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:41:58 PM »

For the ruling on SA still being able to be negated on cards that are protected/immune to the card that is negating, here's a ruling from an elder.

Quote from: Professoralstad on December 08, 2010, 04:55:46 PM

(protecting cards does NOT protect their SA from negation--see Benedictus vs. CP)

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM »

Back to the original question. If Otho uses his discard all cards in battle ability, that completes before the weapon has a chance to activate. After it completes, the Horses special ability would still attempt to activate, but not having a character of matching brigade in battle to activate on it would fail.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2013, 12:01:29 AM »

Why doesn't the Horses activate? It interrupts the character's ability before it completes, I thought.

So it doesn't activate - does that mean my opponent gets special initiative to play before Horses activates?

Korunks · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2013, 06:25:01 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on May 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM

Back to the original question. If Otho uses his discard all cards in battle ability, that completes before the weapon has a chance to activate. After it completes, the Horses special ability would still attempt to activate, but not having a character of matching brigade in battle to activate on it would fail.

That seems inconsistent with the Warrior's spear ruling. It entered battle, was not negated. It should activate.

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2013, 07:00:06 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2013, 06:25:01 AM

Quote from: Gabe on May 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM
Back to the original question. If Otho uses his discard all cards in battle ability, that completes before the weapon has a chance to activate. After it completes, the Horses special ability would still attempt to activate, but not having a character of matching brigade in battle to activate on it would fail.

That seems inconsistent with the Warrior's spear ruling. It entered battle, was not negated. It should activate.

I agree. In that case, the character is also out of battle. The weapon goes on the 'stack' (for lack of a better word) because all abilities and weapons must complete before the block is finished.

Further, there actually is a character in battle when the weapon activates, because Otho causes SI. He also interrupts himself with Horses because he is causing removal by SA.

By all similar rulings, the weapon goes off.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2013, 09:04:40 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2013, 06:25:01 AM

Quote from: Gabe on May 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM
Back to the original question. If Otho uses his discard all cards in battle ability, that completes before the weapon has a chance to activate. After it completes, the Horses special ability would still attempt to activate, but not having a character of matching brigade in battle to activate on it would fail.

That seems inconsistent with the Warrior's spear ruling. It entered battle, was not negated. It should activate.

Warriors Spear activates because it still has a character in play to activate on.

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2013, 11:02:11 AM »

Also, to clarify, Horses would not interrupt Otho. ItB only interrupts ongoing abilities and the last ability played by the opponent. This, I believe, is why Gabe says Horses doesn't activate, because Otho has removed himself and Horses doesn't interrupt that.

Josh · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2013, 12:19:35 PM »

Tangential question: When does special initiative "happen" in the case of mounted Otho? Because the weapon is in battle, does it attempt to activate before special initiative is granted to the hero?

I have a reason for asking this question. Suppose the hero in battle is Asahel. Otho bombs the battle. I see one of two options:

1. Asahel is being removed from battle by Otho's ability, which is complete. Therefore Asahel is granted special initiative before the horses attempt to activate. Asahel plays Bravery of David to negate and discard Otho. Otho uses Herod's Temple to "instead" the discard. At this point, Otho is still in battle and the horses have not activated yet, so they activate now.

2. Asahel is being removed from battle by Otho's ability, but the horses have already entered battle, and therefore their ability is pending. Asahel cannot get special initiative until all pending abilities complete. They attempt to fire, but fail, as Otho is discarding himself. Then Asahel is granted special initiative as if Otho was actually still in battle, and plays Bravery of David. Otho is negated and discarded, but even if Otho is saved by Herod's Temple, the horses will not activate, because they already tried and failed.

Not sure which is correct (if either is), but 1 makes the most sense to me. Having horses fail due to no EC in battle, and then having the hero get special initiative as if the EC was still in battle, seems contradictory in my mind.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »

This is the problem with Special Initiative having to wait until abilities finish to be given. By the current rules (based on Jezebel-Ahab band) I'd have to say:

Otho's ability activates attempting to remove everything from battle, then the Horses attempts to activate, but gets hopelessly confused since the remove hasn't actually happened yet (it's waiting for special initiative) but Otho should be dead. The Interrupt the Battle on the Horses will not interrupt Otho's ability since it is not an opponent's ability and therefore is not technically causing you to lose by removal (nor is it ongoing or the last enhancement).

I guess a similar question: Is a Green Brigade prophet still in battle when Ahab is banded into battle but after Jezebel has removed it from the game?

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2013, 06:11:01 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 15, 2013, 11:02:11 AM

Also, to clarify, Horses would not interrupt Otho. ItB only interrupts ongoing abilities and the last ability played by the opponent. This, I believe, is why Gabe says Horses doesn't activate, because Otho has removed himself and Horses doesn't interrupt that.

Broward, that is incorrect, because ITB also interrupts anything causing the removal of any of your characters:

Quote

o all active ongoing abilities
o abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
o the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.

So you CAN play ITB to stop Otho in this case, or in any case that involves removing your characters.

Quote from: Gabe on May 15, 2013, 09:04:40 AM

Warriors Spear activates because it still has a character in play to activate on.

Two issues: The precedent is that weapons must complete before the block is considered valid. Also, the ITB on Horses does interrupt Otho, because ITB does not specify that the source must be from an opponent for ITB to be used. Therefore, it can go off before he is discarded, and as it is in battle already and being triggered by the block, it must actually do so.

Quote from: jmhartz on May 15, 2013, 12:19:35 PM

Tangential question: When does special initiative "happen" in the case of mounted Otho? Because the weapon is in battle, does it attempt to activate before special initiative is granted to the hero?

SI cannot occur until ALL abilities complete that are activating. That includes ECs, weapons, and any gained/triggered abilities. Then you can have SI. There is no "in between" step at all, once everything is resolved and the point is reached that removal of one side occurs, then SI is granted.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on May 15, 2013, 12:35:00 PM

The Interrupt the Battle on the Horses will not interrupt Otho's ability since it is not an opponent's ability and therefore is not technically causing you to lose by removal (nor is it ongoing or the last enhancement),

See above. It actually does interrupt him, because ITB has no clause restricting abilities to opponents, and it is indeed causing removal.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2013, 06:31:16 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 15, 2013, 06:11:01 PM

Quote from: browarod on May 15, 2013, 11:02:11 AM
Also, to clarify, Horses would not interrupt Otho. ItB only interrupts ongoing abilities and the last ability played by the opponent. This, I believe, is why Gabe says Horses doesn't activate, because Otho has removed himself and Horses doesn't interrupt that.

Broward, that is incorrect, because ITB also interrupts anything causing the removal of any of your characters:

Quote
o all active ongoing abilities
o abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
o the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.

So you CAN play ITB to stop Otho in this case, or in any case that involves removing your characters.

According to the definition of Defeat you cannot interrupt your own Otho's ability.

Quote

An Evil Character is defeated when:
-The Evil Character is removed from the battle because of a special ability (except for mutual destruction by mutual removal)
-The battle ends with the Evil Character being discarded by the numbers of the Hero(es) in battle.
-The battle ends with the Evil Character being ignored by a Hero or Heroes in battle and no non -ignored Evil Characters in battle are defeating the Hero

Even though Otho is being removed he is not being "Defeated" so an interrupt the battle won't be "Defeating" Otho.

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2013, 06:46:47 PM »

You are correct that they added that component to defeat, the rule used to just refer to being removed from battle (which would mean that you could ITB to interrupt it, regardless of the source). Thank you for the correction

However, my original point about weapons needing to activate still stands. Otherwise, as pointed out above, you will have a "middle" step that has never been included in Redemption, where something is 'waiting' to complete (horses) but someone gets SI in the middle (off of Otho). It also goes against precedent (see WS).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2013, 07:11:21 PM »

The reason why this is a problem is that Otho can't remove everything from battle until the opponent has had Special Initiative and Special Initiative doesn't happen until after all abilities on the evil character (and weapons) activate.

Basically I think that either abilities causing Special Initiative have to wait until after everything completes to complete (so that Otho with a weapon would allow you to play an enhancement before the removal and Jezebel/Ahab works the way it does) or that Special Initiative happens immediately (it suspends all abilities and deals with each case of abilities causing Special Initiative as they come up) This would make Otho discard himself before the weapon activates but is currently not how the game works based on how Jezebel/Ahab band works (as well as other things)

I'm actually in favor of the second one, but at the time being I actually agree with Redoubter that the weapon should activate.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2013, 07:58:18 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on May 15, 2013, 07:11:21 PM

I'm actually in favor of the second one

I understand the reasoning, but the problem with that is that there is no such thing as a "stack" in Redemption, and this would actually lead to pausing during abilities as well (as some cards have a removal effect and then something else). This adds significant complexity and inconsistent rulings.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2013, 01:16:27 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 15, 2013, 07:58:18 PM

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on May 15, 2013, 07:11:21 PM
I'm actually in favor of the second one

I understand the reasoning, but the problem with that is that there is no such thing as a "stack" in Redemption, and this would actually lead to pausing during abilities as well (as some cards have a removal effect and then something else). This adds significant complexity and inconsistent rulings.

I know it would cause pausing during abilities, but I think that would actually make things easier to work out (although I haven't gone through everything that affects, so I can't be sure) It would be a strange change, but it would make working out things easier (since you just deal with Special Initiative as it comes up, rather than waiting for everything to go through and then see what happens). I realize that it would be an exception to the "Abilities have to finish before other abilities can be inserted" rule, but Special Initiative already does that, it suspends the ability causing removal, but it doesn't suspend the other abilities on the cards, which I think leads to more complex and inconsistent rulings.

It clears up this problem very nicely. It makes Jezebel/Ahab band work a little different, but not any more complicated, it makes that one Herod not make withdraws CBN and it would make banding characters with Horses and Arrogance easier to work out. I really see no downside (aside from going against how some cards work right now. But maybe I'm wrong.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2013, 03:46:53 AM »

This is how it works with the current rules:

0. Otho activates, kills himself and two paths follow:
A. Opponent does not Negate, all cards in battle are Discarded, Horses never activates.
B. Opponent negates Otho.

1. If that negate did not also negate 2kH, 2kH now activates and interrupts whatever negated Otho.
A. If, during that interrupt, you effectively negate whatever was negating Otho, return to situation 0.
B. If, during that interrupt, you do not negate whatever was negating Otho, Hero's SA activates and play continues normally.

2. If that negate did also negate 2kH, the Hero's SA activates and play continues normally.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2013, 10:59:06 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 16, 2013, 03:46:53 AM

This is how it works with the current rules:

0. Otho activates, kills himself and two paths follow:
A. Opponent does not Negate, all cards in battle are Discarded, Horses never activates.
B. Opponent negates Otho.

1. If that negate did not also negate 2kH, 2kH now activates and interrupts whatever negated Otho.
A. If, during that interrupt, you effectively negate whatever was negating Otho, return to situation 0.
B. If, during that interrupt, you do not negate whatever was negating Otho, Hero's SA activates and play continues normally.

2. If that negate did also negate 2kH, the Hero's SA activates and play continues normally.

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Author Topic: Disobedient Mounted Otho (Read 4496 times)

browarod