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I wouldn't like it if someone did it to.me, but I do.t think that it is unsportsmanlike like. It is a stradegy. If you had seen their hand and knew what they had, it would be an annoyance, but it would be my own fault for making the asumption. But I definitely wouldn't call it dishonorable or dirty play or anything.

On the other hand, my opponent got greedy and jumped the gun to try to get a better soul differential, and it's his fault that he played the cards.

Ohhh how I have a love hate relationship with teams. I had a teammate that jumped the gun many many times... we lost a number of games because of that itchy trigger finger. Sure if you actually did the feign without having Sog and NJ in hand thats in the realm of sketchy play... but eh... its really more of a learning experience for the other player to not jump the gun.

I am curious, though, how the revealed cards were played. It is against the rules to reveal any of your cards, unless a SA specifically says to. Were you putting down characters, or discarding to 8? If not, then that is another problem entirely.

I never actually got to reveal them, I moved them up in my hand and I grabbed them together like you might SoG/NJ, and started to pull it out of my hand.

One was a character, one was an enhancement, so it wasn't like I could have gotten away with "Oh, I was just putting characters around." I was deceptive, even if I wasn't completely intentionally trying to force the misplay. Who draws SoG/NJ T2 after a Mayhem anyway?

For those of you saying that what Westy did was wrong, please answer the following questions.

1. Is it wrong to bluff in a game of any sort?
1a. If it is wrong to bluff in a game, then is it wrong to play any game that requires a player to bluff (Poker, Shadows Over Camelot, I Doubt It (often known by other names), Avalon, Mafia, etc)?
2. Is it wrong to bluff in sports (pump-fake, juke, hand signals, ball fake, etc)?

It seems to me in a cursory overview of the competitive landscape today, whether that be in sports, card games, board games, or the like, that bluffing is a natural part of competition.

3. Is bluffing in competition the same as lying? I have a weekly playgroup and we regularly play Bang! and Avalon (hidden identity games) and sometimes I am asked this question.

Kirk

He bluffed (a very commonly-used strategy in many, many card games) and it worked...

This isn't just any other card game. 

...and while it could be argued that this was a dirty play, I think throwing around terms like "bad character," "improper," or "integrity" is silly.

Frankly I think that "dirty" is a lot  harsher than "improper." I guess that makes you silly, too.

That being said, if your conscience is convicted about your actions then you need to follow that first and foremost.

This is more of what I was getting at. The Bible is clear that "For him who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is a sin." If Westy feels guilty, then it was improper for him to do this. Now, understand that I am not aware of the whole situation, so it is possible that Westy only felt guilty after the scolding of the opponent, in which case it would not be quite the same. 

I have a type of experience in this area. I do Christian home school speech and debate. So there are a lot and i mean a lot of things i can legally do something that are just not ethical in a debate.  So the rule I and lot of people follow by. Is Think if you had this done to you would you be offended. And if you have to think about for one second DO NOT DO IT. I think this rule can apply to Redemption as well

Interesting responses. I would argue that games like Bang, Shadows, Poker, etc, bluffing is a mechanic of the game. You want to convince people that you are someone you are not so that you can get the upper hand. That's not the same with Redemption. MJB's feigned disinterest is his choice, but I would not call that dishonorable. His actions did not cause his opponent to do things differently. The first situation did. The opponents were baited, they took the bait, and the 1st team won because of that. That's not showing who was the better Redemption player, that's showing who was the best at mind games.

For the record, if that happened to me, I would have left the tournament. I guess that's why I don't play Teams (among MANY other reasons), and why I'm just a good player and not a "top" player. Whatever that means...

I'd be curious to hear Rob's thoughts on this, since he did actually create the game. Also for the record, I would argue that bluffing is NOT a mechanic of Redemption (nowhere is it in the rulebook that the object of the game is psyche your player out). One counter would be attacking with a hero with nothing to back it up and hoping your opponent doesn't block. However, that's a legitimate play as you are making a rescue attempt and you are hoping your opponent doesn't have anything to counter. I guess someone could see something like that as bluffing I suppose.

Bluffing and capitalizing on an opponent overextending because of it has been around in CCGs for decades. Frankly I'm astonished this is a seemingly new concept to people that play this game.

Playing your opponent is part what sets top players apart from those that are just good at the game.

Note: I'm not targeting Gabe in particular here; I'm only using his quote because it seems to sum up what several people are saying in this thread. It sums it up nicely, I suppose.

But this is why I don't play this game anymore in a competitive context. Because in order to be a "top player," you have to resort to things that some may consider against good Christian conscience. I, like Brad and Westy, would feel bad for this. This is a question of ethics, not morals. Is it wrong? No. But is it ethical? That's where the debate lies, and I would err on the side of not doing it.

How can we prevent it? Sadly, we can't, because of what MKC said (that it's been in CCG's from the beginning).

~Marti

Bluffing has never bothers me. Still doesn't bother me and will never bother me. I like it when my oponents bluff, it makes the game funner for me.

Lots of good points from both sides.

To begin, bluffing has always been part of the game, yes. I frequently push a hero out that they can simply block with an evil character and win. This type of bluffing seems a bit more serious, and I honestly am not sure how I feel about it. Personally, I think of the Matt Brinkman example, and the fact of the matter is we (at least, I) probably wouldn't have played SoG/NJ unless we were sure that he had SoG, because I'm playing to win, and not for soul differential. We had also just looked at Jordan's hand with Vain Philosophy (since Jordan was actually interested in the game and had been doing the most drawing). In that regard, I don't see a problem with it at all because I would have done things differently regardless of the bluff.

However, I did this to MitchRobStew, who is one of the guys I most look forward to seeing at a tournament, and that probably has more to do with my conscience than anything else. I also started this thread because I thought it was an interesting topic that Redemption hasn't heard a lot about. I've really enjoyed reading both sides of the argument. So yeah, a bit for the "hecklers", but I did feel bad about it because I was playing for third and ended up hitting my friend with a low blow (which I do consider it, though I agree it is perfectly legal). Realistically, since we weren't playing for first, and lost soul differential didn't matter if you lost, he still shouldn't have played SoG/NJ. That makes it more of a mistake on his part, which makes me feel better, but still, if it was an RLK, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it.

OK so I have a confession to make. My opponent set his heros aside with First Fruits and I activate Darius Decree and discard it to discard his heros...

What's wrong with this? He discarded his angels also! I didnt say anything...

You're intentionally allowing him to not play by the rules, resulting in an unfair game.