Author Topic: Disciples (Read 4132 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **on:** October 11, 2010, 12:18:06 AM »

Why isn't Matthias a Disciple?

adotson85 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2010, 12:35:02 AM »

I would say because he wasn't one of the original 12 and because his credibility as a true disciple has long been debated. Some Bible teachers view Matthias as an “invalid” apostle and believe that Paul was God's choice to replace Judas Iscariot as the twelfth apostle and not Matthias.

browarod · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2010, 01:25:00 AM »

You'd think Jesus could have made it easier and just said: "Oh, before I go, I want X to be the new Disciple. Cheerio!".

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2010, 08:10:14 AM »

Doesn't Matthias' verse say he was counted among the 12? What more could you ask for?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2010, 10:11:21 AM »

Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2010, 10:37:51 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 11, 2010, 10:11:21 AM

Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.

Unless, of course, you go to the Bible for comment:

Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Matthias met the criteria set by the apostles for a disciple, he was accepted by them and the church as a disciple, he was selected by the divinely guide lot as a disciple, and he was recorded in the Holy Spirit-inspired book of Acts as a disciple. I That's more than enough evidence for me.

To answer the standard critique, Paul did not meet the criteria set in Acts 1 for a disciple, and his apostleship was real but of a different nature. Beside, do you really want Paul counted as a disciple in Redemption? I can only imagine the brokenness that would ensue.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2010, 10:39:40 AM »

Quote from: DDiceRC on October 11, 2010, 10:37:51 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 11, 2010, 10:11:21 AM
Well, they casted lots, which "casts" his position into question.
Unless, of course, you go to the Bible for comment:

Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

It all depends on one's definition of "disciple". I'm unsure where I stand.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2010, 10:52:35 AM »

I think that Matthias should be classified as a Disciple, but I'm not sure whether he will be or not.

SirNobody · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2010, 01:43:28 PM »

Hey,

The Redemption definition of Disciple is limited to the 12 individuals that Jesus called and that followed Him during His earthly life.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

DDiceRC · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2010, 02:07:39 PM »

So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples?

SirNobody · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2010, 02:32:32 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: DDiceRC on October 11, 2010, 02:07:39 PM

So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples?

So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?

The demon ruling isn't a biblical correctness issue, it's a problematic theology issue. (And in my personal opinion it's a ruling we shouldn't have made.)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

DDiceRC · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2010, 02:56:06 PM »

No, I tell them 12. Judas forfeited his place, and was replaced Matthias. No future vacancies on the disciple team were. Therefore, Jesus had 12 disciples, first including Judas, then including Matthias.

When Jesus told his disciples they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, who do you think He envisioned on the 12th throne? Judas?

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2010, 03:34:52 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 11, 2010, 02:32:32 PM

So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?

It depends on if they're asking how many at one time or how many overall. 12 at one time, 12 good and 1 evil overall.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2010, 03:38:27 PM »

We usually don't say 13 tribes either, since Manasseh and Ephraim are only "half" tribes.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2010, 07:30:03 PM »

Quote

So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?

No, I would tell them hundreds or probably thousands. The gospels talk about many many disciples that followed Jesus during His earthly ministry; at certain points some abandoned Him due to hard teachings or other reasons but there were many still left at the end. See how many Jesus appeared to after His resurrection or how many were in the room at Pentecost.

I think Redemption should have used "Apostles" instead of "Disciples" as the keyword for the 12. Out of the many disciples, Jesus chose 12 to also be apostles. While the number of disciples continued to change, the group of Apostles was more limited. Because of their special position they are also referred to as "The 12 disciples". I think people often refer to them as "The 12 disciples" during Jesus' earthly ministry and as "The 12 Apostles" after His ascension. It seems that it is this group that they meant to refer to with disciples. Biblically "disciples" should refer to all the people that followed Him but that would be way overpowered and is not what they meant with those cards.

I think the issue with the game is, who do we want to target with a card? I know they want to reduce words used but if they just want the cards to work with the 12 then I wish they would have worded it that way.

So in regards to the group of 12, Judas should be counted as one. He is part of that original group chosen by Jesus and Matthias is not. My translation says that Matthias was numbered with the eleven apostles and that is the same language used for Judas. So for post ascension cards that refer to the apostles, Matthias should be counted as one of them. Paul is definitely an apostle but I don't think he is counted as one of the 12.

P.S.
Who was included in the 12 tribes changed; their are a couple different lists.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2010, 07:44:30 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 11, 2010, 02:32:32 PM

Hey,
Quote from: DDiceRC on October 11, 2010, 02:07:39 PM
So while Redemption tries to become more Biblically correct with the new demon ruling, it remains Biblically incorrect on disciples?
So when someone asks you how many disciples Jesus had do you tell them 13?
The demon ruling isn't a biblical correctness issue, it's a problematic theology issue. (And in my personal opinion it's a ruling we shouldn't have made.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I agree.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2010, 09:13:37 PM »

It's nigh impossible to design something like this and please everyone.

There were never more than twelve disciples. Problem is, Redemption takes all of ~5,000 years and puts it together into one window, so we've got 13...

When I'm teaching new people Redemption, I like to say "It only has occasional moments of heresy."

SirNobody · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2010, 09:32:53 PM »

Hey,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disciples

Definition 1-a "one of the 12 personal followers of Christ."

We may not have chosen the same definition or word that you might have, but that doesn't make our choice wrong.

NOTE: "you" is not directed at any person in particular.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2010, 09:48:22 PM »

Personally, I feel like Matthias deserves the title of Apostle way more than Judas, but that's by my definition.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2010, 12:13:20 AM »

So we're using dictionary definitions of "Disciple" but not "Heretic?" I ask again, why are we ignoring the "divisive" part of the definition of Heretic and making it only the "false doctrine" part?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2010, 01:28:16 AM »

Apostle was a bit larger than the 12, it included the 11, Matthias, Paul, Jesus's brothers, and a few other people I think, Disciple really refers to everyone who ever followed anyone really, but if you limit it to Jesus, then you still get everyone that followed Jesus and obeyed his teachings, however we are using a much less stricted definition.

I am fine with this and I am ok with Matthias not becoming a disciple because he took Judas's place after the resurection.

Red · « **Reply #21 on:** October 12, 2010, 09:24:39 AM »

Apostles are the 12. Disciples are greater in number than the Apostles. Redemption should have used Apostles.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2010, 10:00:51 AM »

So is this sort of like the Salome vs. Salome argument? intent vs. circumstance?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #23 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:51:14 PM »

Paul seems to think he's an Apostle, and he's not one of the 12

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2010, 08:57:56 PM »

I think he has a good case theologically, which seems to be the way the game is going lately.

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Author Topic: Disciples (Read 4132 times)

Warrior_Monk

browarod

browarod

Warrior_Monk