Author Topic: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.  (Read 2373 times)

Offline jbeers285

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If a card with a an ability that needs to be triggered is discard but not negated during a battle phase can it not still be triggered during that battle phase?

Questions

Rescuer enters against someone playing Golden Cheribum. GC is discarded and then then the rescuer draws a card. GC is then done at the conclusion of special abilities to allow the defender to search for a card.  Why is this the case?
When
An NT hero enters with Herod's temple active. During the battle phase the defender discards Herod's temple without negating it.  Blocker then plays Christian Martyr in the same battle phase but the rescuer cannot instead the discard?

I am struggling to follow why those situations are not ruled the same way. Either both can trigger if discarded and not negated or neither can trigger right?

Yes I know GC is CBN which is why I specified that HT wasn't negated only discarded. (Perhaps by Abomb or something)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:24:18 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 05:18:57 PM »
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This is a really good question.  Not sure if this came from the Potiphar's Wife thread or not, but that would be my guess ;)

I have always played that HT needs to be in play for you to do the instead, but that GC allows you to search even if discarded.  This seems contradictory and I never noticed before.

Anyone able to find a rule and/or precedent that would resolve this one way or the other?  I frankly agree that it should not be both ways.

browarod

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 05:25:18 PM »
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Where did you hear that you can trigger GC after it's discarded? I haven't heard that or ever seen it played that way and I would think that it couldn't trigger if it's no longer in play.

Either way, I definitely agree that triggers should be treated consistently.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 05:27:54 PM »
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I've just had it ruled that way, and ruled it that way myself.  It comes from the fact that GC is CBN, and is an automatic trigger (unlike HT which is more of a manual trigger).  The ability does not end until the phase ends, and I would lean more towards "it still works" unless we clarify that triggers don't work on cards no longer in play.  I had thought it was that way, but I can't find a rule/precedent to make it so.  I can go to rules and precedent that say abilities generally continue until end of phase, however.

I may have to say that HT still works if discarded, based on what I can find.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 05:37:48 PM »
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I've never heard of triggers fizzling the card dies so I agree with Redoubter.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:41:57 PM by TheHobbit »

browarod

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 05:46:15 PM »
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I guess I just always assumed that only ongoing abilities lasted until the end of the phase. The idea that you can trigger the ability on something when it's not in play just seems really odd to me.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 05:47:01 PM »
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I guess I just always assumed that only ongoing abilities lasted until the end of the phase. The idea that you can trigger the ability on something when it's not in play just seems really odd to me.

The thing is that triggers are still ongoing abilities, regardless of also being triggers (by definition).

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 05:50:05 PM »
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My assumption has always been that abilities last until he end of phase if they aren't negated (some abilities finish before then, like Discard a Hero). I do remember that Unholy Writ was given an errata to prevent it from being used multiple times in the same battle phase since it is worded something like "Capture a hero. Discard after use." Since it didn't end until after the phase there was nothing stopping you from continuing to capture until the phase ended.

It's possible the rules have changed since then, but I am not aware of it.
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browarod

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 05:56:48 PM »
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The thing is that triggers are still ongoing abilities, regardless of also being triggers (by definition).
Where is that in the rules? The only things I could find having anything similar to "trigger"were-
1. The definition of "Triggered": Some ongoing special abilities are delayed until a specified game action takes place. These special abilities are then activated or ‘triggered’. Triggered special abilities are ongoing abilities of the form ‘if X happens then Y’.

This indicates some ongoing abilities have triggers but not necessarily that all triggers are ongoing.

2. The definition of "Manually Triggered Ability": A manually triggered ability is an ongoing ability that is directly triggered by the holder. Triggered ongoing abilities only appear on Fortresses and cards being treated as Artifacts. They are triggered immediately on cards being treated as Enhancements. Manually triggered abilities can be identified by the phrase “when holder chooses”. The phrase only applies for Covenant and Curse cards when they are used as Artifacts. If the condition for the trigger is met, the holder must be given the choice to activate the ability before another card can be played.

This one specifies having the wording "when holder chooses" which doesn't apply to any cards in our situation. This might be an outdated specification, but that's what it says currently.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 06:06:51 PM »
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Note that both definitions there of triggered abilities indicate that they are ongoing abilities.  I'm not sure if you are still saying that triggers are not ongoing.  They have to be, otherwise you couldn't use them.

Offline Eragon5

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 06:09:13 PM »
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Arrthoa:
"Here is what the REG defines Triggered as:
Some ongoing special abilities are delayed until a specified game action takes place. These special abilities are then activated or ‘triggered’. Triggered special abilities are ongoing abilities of the form ‘if X happens then Y’.

So it is ongoing in a way, but is not always active until X happens"
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/off-topic/new-set-card-previews!!!!/msg505766/#msg505766

jmhartz:
"Delayed triggered abilities like GI aren't exactly the same as ongoing abilities like Protect, Immune, etc.  But it has always been ruled (as far as I can remember) that the trigger waiting to activate is "ongoing" and can be targeted exactly the same as any other ongoing ability."
 . . .
Browarod:
"So, just to clarify and confirm, all triggers always and forever, regardless of what they're paired with, are always ongoing?"
Redoubter:
"An ability is ongoing if it is not something that completes when the card is played, but has an ongoing component.
Quote from: The REG
Instant Abilities
Instant abilities are special abilities that complete when the card is played, and do not have ongoing
effects.

Ongoing Abilities
Ongoing abilities are abilities that have an ongoing effect on the game or specific cards and are
not completed until the phase in which they are used has ended. They are distinguished from
Instant Abilities, which have an instant effect on the game or specific cards, and then complete
when that effect takes place. "
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/reach-vs-great-image/msg521441/#msg521441

Here are a few things I found, I'm still trying to find more definitive rulings. There have been several posts since I started writing this so I'll just go ahead and post this and hope it's not worthless.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 07:11:11 PM by Eragon5 »
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 06:55:03 PM »
+1
Note that both definitions there of triggered abilities indicate that they are ongoing abilities.  I'm not sure if you are still saying that triggers are not ongoing.  They have to be, otherwise you couldn't use them.
In this case I would argue that I was right from the Potiphar's wife thread, since the ability was ongoing and not negated, and even though she is no longer in play her ability activates.
Not that anybody is keeping track . . . ;)

Just a friendly moderator reminder for you

We try to avoid double posting, try using the edit post button and adding to your most recent post. Also the content of your post probably should have stayed in the potiphar's wife thread rather than this one. Thanks
Eragon5 your right I missed Redoubters redirect my bad.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 08:44:48 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Eragon5

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 07:02:10 PM »
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Ok thank you!
By the way Redoubter said to carry the discussion here, so whether I took that out Of context I'm not sure, but that's why I posted that here.
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Offline kram1138

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 07:07:31 PM »
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I've always assumed that they were ongoing, since they aren't really instant abilities, and thus are active until end of phase.
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browarod

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 08:09:54 PM »
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Note that both definitions there of triggered abilities indicate that they are ongoing abilities.  I'm not sure if you are still saying that triggers are not ongoing.  They have to be, otherwise you couldn't use them.
This indicates some ongoing abilities have triggers but not necessarily that all triggers are ongoing.

~||~

I get what you're saying, it just doesn't really make sense to me that a card not in play can trigger an effect, and I've never seen or heard of anyone using Herod's Temple the same phase it was discarded, or Golden Cherubim after being discarded. Does that necessarily mean you're wrong? No, people could have been playing it wrong. I just don't think that, if what you say is actually the current rule, that it should be the rule.

Take Obadiah's Caves. If it's discarded but not negated during battle and you play Joseph in Prison against my green prophet, suddenly a non-existent fortress is trying to instead that to "here". So would the prophet be placed on Caves in the discard pile? That's what the trigger is telling you to do and I don't think there's explicitly a rule saying cards in the discard pile can't hold other cards (identifiers are active in all locations, after all). At the very least it's confusing and weird.

I don't presume to think that my opinion should mean the rule is changed, haha, just trying to understand.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 08:18:25 PM by browarod »

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 08:33:50 PM »
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Like I said, I've obviously been playing either one thing wrong or the other.  I'd like to hear some more input from REPs and Elders on what they think of this rule.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2015, 08:44:22 PM »
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Gabe and I were discussing this at a recent play night. I believe the conclusion that we came to is that manually triggered (If x MAY y) cannot be carried out if the card with the ability is no longer in play. As both Golden Cherubim and Herod's Temple are manual triggers neither one would work after being discarded.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2015, 08:49:48 PM »
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I think that there is an issue with that and our current understanding of ongoing abilities lasting until end of phase, though I cannot say that it should make sense to have manual triggers activate when the card is not in play.

Check your messages, I think we should discuss this one.

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 12:22:10 PM »
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Will a conclusion to this question be posted here? A new thread?
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 12:51:26 PM »
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Gabe and I were discussing this at a recent play night. I believe the conclusion that we came to is that manually triggered (If x MAY y) cannot be carried out if the card with the ability is no longer in play. As both Golden Cherubim and Herod's Temple are manual triggers neither one would work after being discarded.

If this is true then a discard ability becomes a functional negate ability in certain situations. Right?

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 01:02:45 PM »
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Gabe and I were discussing this at a recent play night. I believe the conclusion that we came to is that manually triggered (If x MAY y) cannot be carried out if the card with the ability is no longer in play. As both Golden Cherubim and Herod's Temple are manual triggers neither one would work after being discarded.

If this is true then a discard ability becomes a functional negate ability in certain situations. Right?

Not so much of a negate, it would be closer to a prevent, since it won't undo anything already done.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Discarding cards with triggered abilities in the battle phase.
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 01:24:37 PM »
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I've thoroughly searched the rule book and the REG. In the REG under each of the ongoing abilities the default condition states "last until the end of the phase in which they are used." If a card with an ongoing ability is discarded, the ability continues to be active unless it was negated.
 
None of the instant abilities say they remain active until the end of the phase. If a card with an instant ability isn't in play to activate or trigger, I don't see anything in the rules that allows it to work.

We will discuss this in further detail and get back to you when we reach a conclusion.
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