Author Topic: Stone Cutting  (Read 2306 times)

Offline Praeceps

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Stone Cutting
« on: April 21, 2015, 01:28:59 AM »
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Stone cut Without Hands - Holder ignores the Great Image card.

Does this card actually do anything?
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 02:39:22 AM »
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As it's written it really shouldn't do anything, since a player ignoring a card that targets heroes would do nothing to protect those heroes... can a player even ignore something (in Redemption terms, I realize that people ignore things all the time in real life)? Of course this card could have an errata, or much more likely it's just ruled to work a certain way because it's an old card and often old cards don't work as written due to a lack of standardization back then.

So my answer is, I have no idea, but no matter what the answer is I have a pretty good idea why.
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 04:42:48 PM »
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It's not on any Errata list I can find.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 07:00:05 PM »
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Stone cut Without Hands - Holder ignores the Great Image card.

Does this card actually do anything?

The card was printed way back in the 90's, before ignore was defined the way it is today. Back when the REG had "play as" entries for individual cards Stone Cut without Hands had the following "play as" ability:

Quote
Your Heroes ignore Great Image.

With that in mind, the following portion of the ignore ability would apply.

Quote from: REG
How to Play
An ignore ability has four parts:
1. it grants the ignoring card immunity to all cards being ignored
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 07:50:13 PM »
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Wouldn't that be an Errata, not a play-as, as that is not what the card says it does?

Thanks for answering the question, regardless.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 08:29:33 PM »
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As Gabe pointed out, there's really not an errata needed.  The "holder" cannot really be affected by Great Image, but their cards can.  And we already have the ruling that things like "protected from opponent's" really means "protected from opponent's cards".  And thus we can see the "holder" ignoring it means that their cards actually 'ignore' it.  That includes the holder's heroes.  And since heroes "ignoring" an enhancement means that they are actually 'immune' per the description of ignore, this card really means that the heroes are immune to the effects of Great Image.

But since that means it has to be played before Great Image (or the latter must be interrupted), and there is no other purpose for using this card, I don't think it really will have an impact on any games.

slugfencer

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 10:02:43 PM »
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Name on name bonus with stone of thebez?!?! :P

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 11:04:38 PM »
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But since that means it has to be played before Great Image (or the latter must be interrupted), and there is no other purpose for using this card, I don't think it really will have an impact on any games.

While that is certainly the truth, I have two more questions about this.

1. Why would it have to be played first? The discard doesn't happen until the end of battle so if you are immune before that even if the trigger was used, you wouldn't be a viable target anymore, surely?

2. Since the discard doesn't happen until the end of battle wouldn't the immunity end before the discard happens? I mean if it can't even check which heroes to target until the end of battle, then surely the battle must be done when the discard happens.

Great Image - All opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle at end of this battle must be discarded.
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browarod

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 09:37:00 AM »
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For #1 I think I would agree with you. Great Image doesn't complete its effect until later in the battle so any immunity/protection/etc. activated during the battle should function correctly and prevent the discard.

For #2 I believe that it happens at the same time the battle ends, it can't technically be "after battle" otherwise there wouldn't be any Heroes in battle and all the opponent's Heroes would be discarded. As such, since it's still the same phase, any ongoing effects (like immunity or protection) would still be active.

Offline kram1138

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 04:04:15 PM »
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It would happen during battle resolution, which is still part of the battle phase, so the ignore would still be in effect. It's why you can't play an end the battle ability to get around ignore. End the battle abilities skip the battle directly to resolution, but the ignore is still in effect.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 05:08:41 PM »
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Everyone is making good points, so I'll come back in here and try to tackle this.

The targeting for Great Image is ongoing, and the trigger for activating the discard is Battle Resolution (kram1138 points out why this does not happen after battle, but rather in Battle Resolution, and how abilities would still be active).  So, it is already targeting the characters for discard after battle.  Immunity stops a card from being targeted by the referenced card/ability.  Therefore, I still see a reasonable ruling in what I said earlier, that it must be activated prior to Great Image (or the latter interrupted).

However, I understand the points as well that the actual discard does not happen until later.  The question is whether Great Image targets the cards in its triggered-state (in Battle Resolution).  If it does not, then the immunity must be in place prior to it being played, because that would mean that the only targeting took place when it was played (and as it was updated, if new targets come out).  If it does target a second time, that means that immunity would stop the discard regardless of when played, because it would target to find the targets but then target again when actually triggered.

I stand by my original ruling on this, sticking with the first interpretation above (that it does not actually target a second time), but this is a good discussion.  Any other thoughts here?

browarod

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 05:38:39 PM »
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Great Image - All opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle at end of this battle must be discarded.

I'm just not seeing where this ability says it targets when it activates. The stipulation is "Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle at the end of this battle". When does it check? At the end of this battle. What does it target? Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle.

I take that to mean it checks for the Heroes when the timing is met, which is at the end of the battle. Can you explain where you're getting the "targets when played" thinking?

I'll admit, this is a one-of-a-kind card, so I could be trying to fit it into a mold that it doesn't adhere to.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 05:45:58 PM »
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Definitely a one-of-a-kind ;)  Like this discussion.

You make an interesting point about the time of the targeting, though I'm still seeing it as targeting at the time played, since that is generally the time when targeting occurs.  Now, as mentioned, this card is...unique.  Your interpretation of the wording may be right after all.  I'd like to hear more input on this one.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 05:56:47 PM »
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Great Image - All opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle at end of this battle must be discarded.

To me it sounds like it's pretty obviously waiting until the end of the battle to target, since that's what it says. If it said, "All opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle must be discarded at the end of battle." I could see it targeting at that moment, but waiting for the end of battle to actually do the discarding, but as it's written I'd say it does everything at the end of battle.
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 01:01:42 PM »
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Definitely a one-of-a-kind ;)  Like this discussion.

You make an interesting point about the time of the targeting, though I'm still seeing it as targeting at the time played, since that is generally the time when targeting occurs.  Now, as mentioned, this card is...unique.  Your interpretation of the wording may be right after all.  I'd like to hear more input on this one.

If it targets when you say it targets, then any hero that I band in after it targets (when played) would still be discarded even though they are ultimately in battle that the Battle Resolution. Or the more reasonable interpretation would be that this is a delayed target that actually tells you when it targets more like and "If X then Y" ability. "If (any if opponent's hero's are not in the Field of Battle at Battle Resolution) then (they are discarded)".

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 01:07:12 PM »
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I'll keep responding to these from the perspective I gave so we can get all of the point-counterpoint out and discussed.

It would be updating the targets in my scenario, such that those banded in would be 'seen' as not meeting the condition, and those added to territory would be 'seen' as meeting the condition.  Ongoing abilities do update their targets, and that also leads me to believe that this targets the entire time.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 01:12:04 PM »
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As Gabe pointed out, there's really not an errata needed.

Just to clarify, but I wasn't asking for an errata, I was asking if the play-as was an errata since it seemed (to me) to change the function of the card from what was printed on the card. Not a big deal, though :)

Ongoing abilities do update their targets, and that also leads me to believe that this targets the entire time.

But Discard isn't an ongoing ability, and neither is this. GI gives a specific point in which to check a condition and if that condition is met then the discard happens.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 01:20:29 PM by Praeceps »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Stone Cutting
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 01:34:35 PM »
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Cards with a delayed/automatic/manual trigger are ongoing, because they have not yet completed.  Regardless of whether the effect that will happen is instant, the ability is still ongoing and updating targets throughout, because it has not completed.  By definition, this is an ongoing effect with a trigger.

 


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