Author Topic: Discard Phase - Dominants (Read 4753 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** July 03, 2011, 01:32:32 PM »

At MW Regionals, my opponent (who is an elder) during their discard phase discarded all the cards in his hand and then played Mayhem in hopes of getting the big 2. Later it came up in conversation with 2 other elders there that once you started discarding cards from hand, then you couldn't do anything else that turn. Even though it was to my opponent's advantage, I agree with his move and not the other 2 elders. Would like some official clarification on this. I don't see the rules saying you can't play any cards let alone not being able to play your Dominants.

The rulebook says:

Quote

You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:

• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.

• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.

• Place a site into your territory.

• Set aside a character.

• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.

Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.

After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile. This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2011, 01:54:38 PM »

This is obviously outdated and incomplete since it doesn't mention playing Dominants, healing cards, or territory class enhancements but it is the only thing I could find.

I think they may be getting the idea from a very literal reading of the bottom paragraph. I think that was just meant to be a general description of the discard phase and what happens in it - not a restrictive rule. Generally, players will want to play down cards before discarding from hand and generally players with less than 8 cards in hand will not want to discard some but will just end their turn. With a literal reading, you could get the idea that if you have less than 8 cards in your hand then you cannot play any cards from your hand during discard or choose to discard down to even less cards in hand.

I also have a problem with the discard phase being divided into 2 sub-phases. The part of the discard phase where you play things and the part where you discard from hand. Like the prep phase you should be able to do things in whatever order you want, you just have to be below 8 cards in hand before you announce the end of your turn.

I also dislike the idea of saying that you can't play your Dominants during various parts of the game. The whole point and nature of Doms is that you can play them at any time except in the middle of resolving another ability.

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2011, 02:45:17 PM »

It's my understanding that in the strictest sense of the rules, the very last thing you do in your turn is discard cards from hand. Technically, once you start discarding you can't even play cards (characters, Sites, Fortresses, Artifacts, ect) to territory. Discarding those cards indicates that end of your turn.

I'm know to be pretty "by the book" during tournament play but even I have never said anything when a player discards a card, then plays a card to territory, then discards, etc as they try to get their hand down to the required size. I haven't ever notice anyone else hold strictly to that either. There's really not strategic advantage to doing that, it just helps players decided what they can afford to discard and what they can't. I've done it that way too.

But I would rule that once you discard you are not allowed to play a Dominant because your turn has ended. Playing Mayhem like could potentially give you a strategic advantage.

WesterForever · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »

I thought that dominants were not dependent on who's turn it was. Can't you play them at any time? Aren't they for "strategic advantage"?

COUNTER_SNIPER · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2011, 05:53:34 PM »

I'd discard down to Mayhem, wait for the next person's turn, let them draw their 3, and THEN play Mayhem. But that's just me.

Unless there's a rule that says you can't do that, that would be the most strategic advantage you could have in that situation. Plus, it's more correct according to "Das Rules."

Carry On,

-C_S

Nameless · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2011, 07:10:32 PM »

Quote from: COUNTER_SNIPER on July 03, 2011, 05:53:34 PM

I'd discard down to Mayhem, wait for the next person's turn, let them draw their 3, and THEN play Mayhem. But that's just me. Unless there's a rule that says you can't do that, that would be the most strategic advantage you could have in that situation. Plus, it's more correct according to "Das Rules."

Carry On,

-C_S

I love doing that!

WesterForever · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2011, 08:41:08 PM »

Gabe did that to me today. :/ So mean. :p

COUNTER_SNIPER · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2011, 10:00:59 PM »

It's even better when you play A New Beginning, Draw 8 (Including Mayhem) play a bunch of cards, make a successful RA, discard down to Mayhem (If you aren't there already), wait for them to draw 3 more and then: MAYHEM!! So awesome when you get to do it!

Carry On,

-C_S

Master KChief · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2011, 10:09:28 PM »

you would actually draw 11 from new beginning.

what you describe is essentially a first turn mayhem.

COUNTER_SNIPER · « **Reply #9 on:** July 04, 2011, 12:14:16 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on July 03, 2011, 10:09:28 PM

you would actually draw 11 from new beginning.

what you describe is essentially a first turn mayhem.

Except you wipe out their hand twice, which is what makes it better.

Carry On,

-C_S

WesterForever · « **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:02:07 AM »

Ahh, the dark side of my Christian brothers. :p

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:05:40 AM »

Perhaps both players had 3 and the game was coming down to a race for SoG/NJ. In that case, it would benefit you to play Mayhem before allowing your opponent to D3, since if he got his brokenness he'd be allowed to play it ftw before you could Mayhem.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #12 on:** July 04, 2011, 02:28:27 AM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 03, 2011, 01:32:32 PM

At MW Regionals, my opponent (who is an elder)...with 2 other elders there

That's weird, because I don't remember being in on that discussion at all. And I didn't know there were 3 other elders there besides me

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2011, 09:50:40 AM »

I agree with galadgawan in principle. The rulebook quote was designed to explain to new players how the Discard Phase works. I think most (if not all) of us play Redemption with our turn ending the moment we say, "I end my turn."

Of course, the Delarosas from Florida end their turn by knocking on the table....

galadgawyn · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2011, 11:18:01 AM »

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I'd discard down to Mayhem, wait for the next person's turn, let them draw their 3, and THEN play Mayhem. But that's just me. Unless there's a rule that says you can't do that, that would be the most strategic advantage you could have in that situation.

That in fact would NOT be the most strategic thing to do. Time had been called and there was no next turn.

Quote

That's weird, because I don't remember being in on that discussion at all. And I didn't know there were 3 other elders there besides me

Hey Mark, you weren't in on the discussion. There weren't 4 elders there; you were the third who did that in the time out game against me!

It didn't help you get SoG but I thought it was a nice try.

Quote

It's my understanding that in the strictest sense of the rules, the very last thing you do in your turn is discard cards from hand. Technically, once you start discarding you can't even play cards (characters, Sites, Fortresses, Artifacts, ect) to territory

Where do you get that from? How exactly do you support that position? I don't see the rules logically supporting that conclusion.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2011, 11:28:14 AM »

I see where he's coming from in a way, but a strict strict interpretation of the rules would actually say that you're not even allowed to discard past 8 period, and that's clearly not the case.

COUNTER_SNIPER · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2011, 03:43:25 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 04, 2011, 11:18:01 AM

Quote
I'd discard down to Mayhem, wait for the next person's turn, let them draw their 3, and THEN play Mayhem. But that's just me. Unless there's a rule that says you can't do that, that would be the most strategic advantage you could have in that situation.

That in fact would NOT be the most strategic thing to do. Time had been called and there was no next turn.

Well, I did not know that particular piece of information!

'twas not included in the original scenario

Carry On,

-C_S

galadgawyn · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2011, 02:14:22 PM »

Quote

Well, I did not know that particular piece of information! 'twas not included in the original scenario

No problem. Nothing personal, it just annoys me when people are trying to get an answer about what is allowed in the rules and others respond with saying that in their opinion there is no good reason to play it that way so it doesn't really matter if it is a legal play. Strategy changes so much in different situations and from year to year that I don't want to get sidetracked in debating strategy when I'm trying to clarify what is legally possible.

I am still hoping for a more official ruling on this. I appreciate Gabe's answer but it seems to be inconsistent both in interpretation and application. Also, there is no other elder answer and there a couple Reps that at least partly agree with my point.

Quote

There's really not strategic advantage to doing that, it just helps players decided what they can afford to discard and what they can't. I've done it that way too.
But I would rule that once you discard you are not allowed to play a Dominant because your turn has ended. Playing Mayhem like could potentially give you a strategic advantage.

I don’t think basing the ruling on whether it gives you strategic advantage is sound. That could easily change with new TC enhancements, fortresses, sites, etc. Current example:

You are in discard phase and have a couple copies of Meeting the Messiah and Pretension in your hand. You can’t draw yet because you have 16 cards in hand, so you discard 6 cards and then play your TC enhancements and then discard down to 8 again. Why allow all those other cards to be freely played in discard phase but not the type of card that is supposed to be more freely played than any other?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2011, 02:23:54 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 11, 2011, 02:14:22 PM

I am still hoping for a more official ruling on this.

There's a decent chance that you'll get one relatively soon, and you can expect for it to lean on the side of flexibility. The only thing holding it up is the fact that it is tied into a larger issue that we've been debating for a long time now (the definition of "play").

Smokey · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2011, 04:00:34 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 11, 2011, 02:23:54 PM

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 11, 2011, 02:14:22 PM
I am still hoping for a more official ruling on this.
There's a decent chance that you'll get one relatively soon, and you can expect for it to lean on the side of flexibility. The only thing holding it up is the fact that it is tied into a larger issue that we've been debating for a long time now (the definition of "play").

Until further notice, playing redemption will be called dueling.

Prof U triggered my trap card.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 20, 2018, 10:45:48 AM »

Hey this thread is super interesting n Never got clarification. Wonder if anyone could chime in now a days

The Guardian · « **Reply #21 on:** June 20, 2018, 11:01:05 AM »

While I can understand the strict interpretation that Gabe referred to, I would actually say in this specific instance that Mayhem could still be played since dominants can be played at any time unless an ability or a battle is resolving.

However much like actions can be done in any order during the prep phase, I tend to follow a looser interpretation of the discard phase (i.e. you can discard a card and still put down a character afterward).

Lex1122 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 20, 2018, 11:05:40 AM »

SEB · « **Reply #23 on:** June 20, 2018, 11:05:47 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on June 20, 2018, 11:01:05 AM

While I can understand the strict interpretation that Gabe referred to, I would actually say in this specific instance that Mayhem could still be played since dominants can be played at any time unless an ability or a battle is resolving.

However much like actions can be done in any order during the prep phase, I tend to follow a looser interpretation of the discard phase (i.e. you can discard a card and still put down a character afterward).

But wouldnt the danger of this be if a character interacts with the discard pile, you have now given yourself an extra advantage?

I feel there should be a clear order to the discard phase in a competitive environment. "normal" play i would be more relaxed

The Guardian · « **Reply #24 on:** June 20, 2018, 11:15:06 AM »

So you mean like if a certain ability on one card required a different card to be the discard pile in order to work?

That could certainly make a difference, but there's really no advantage since your opponent could do the exact same thing.

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Author Topic: Discard Phase - Dominants (Read 4753 times)