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I would say, just before giving opponent a LS and just after battle has been resolved. I don't think archer would get discarded leaving Wise Men alone.

Related* Question:
   What if Thad is shot by Archers and Grapes of Wrath is used on the Wise Men, is Archers shuffled or discarded?

* This question is related because I think "end of battle" would impact the Archer's destination.

I believe "End of Battle" is after a soul has been relinquished (or otherwise the Hero withdraws/is discarded/whatever).

It appears that Chris is correct--I just found this on the wiki under battle resolution.

Resolve end-of-battle special ability based on the conditions established in Steps 1 and 2. All unaffected cards are treated under normal gameplay rules (such as discard, return to territory, Land of Redemption, etc).

Archers ability is a trigger effect. So as long as Thad. Is discarded at the end of battle by archers effect (im looking at you to explain this situation Tim) he would be discarded as well at the end of battle.

Just a clarification--Thaddeus would be discarded immediately upon the Archer-Type Character entering battle and targeting him. The only part of the Archer-Type Characters' special ability that is triggered is the "discard at the end of battle."

He would finish discarding Thad and insert archer here would remain in deck .

I believe the Archer situation goes like this: Archer's self-discard ability targets himself, and special abilities (unless specified) cannot target out of play cards. Therefore, if you discard a Hero with Archer and he is later removed from play by any means (discard, shuffle, return to hand, set aside, etc.) then his self-discard no longer has a legal target and he is not discarded from his new location. In the Archer+Warden example you could use Archer to snipe Thad in territory, then play Grapes on Warden to shuffle Archer and use him again when you re-draw him.

Not 100% sure, but I believe that's how it works.

This is a different situation from cards like Assyrian Survivor, which describe how a situation normally resolved at end of battle ("defeat" for example) and says what happens instead ("capture to opponent's Land of Bondage").

Abilities that describe an end of battle condition (ex: If defeated, If character defeats, If rescue attempt fails, etc.) followed by instructions about what to do when that condition is met, have an implied “instead” which causes the effect described in the ability to replace other effects if the condition is met.

This ability is different, because the condition is not an 'end of battle condition' because it happened upon the Archer's entry ("If you [discard a hero]").  It does not describe any state or condition from the end of battle.

This ability is a self-targeting discard that activates at a particular time.  As such, with no other targeting specifications, it defaults to play as per default targeting.

End of battle abilities resolve after all other components of Battle Resolution:

However, beyond the outcome of the battle you must also determine the outcomes of the battle challenge or rescue attempt. Here is the order to follow:
1. Determine the outcome of the battle (Evil Character wins, Heroes wins, mutual destruction, or stalemate).
2. Determine success or failure of the rescue attempt or battle challenge. If the battle was a battle challenge, then success or failure of a battle challenge has only one condition, the battle outcome in step 1. If Hero wins and has (or has gained) access to a Lost Soul, it’s a successful rescue. If Hero loses battle or loses access to opponent’s Lost Souls, then the
rescue fails.
3. Resolve end-of-battle special ability based on the conditions established in Steps 1 and 2. All unaffected cards are treated under normal gameplay rules (such as discard, return to territory, Land of Redemption, etc).

Therefore, it takes place after any determination of victory and/or rescue is made.

Take all of this together, and you get this ruling:

Archer's self-discard targets itself for discard AFTER the battle is over completely (including determining result and if a Soul is rescued); he contributes to determining the battle winner.

It is not an instead, and has no other targeting, so it defaults to play; if he is out of play, the discard does not complete (no target).

Hope that clears things up.

Redoubter, would you care to comment on whether or not Grapes ends the battle?

Scenario: I have a hero in battle who is protected from shuffle. Can I play Grapes, discard one evil card and then shuffle everyone else leaving the unshuffled hero to gather a free lost soul?

Just to have the correct version of Grapes:

Grapes of Wrath - "Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle."

I know that I have seen (but cannot find) references to Grapes "effectively ending the battle" but it has no such effect.  The battle can still continue (for example, both a hero and an EC can be protected from shuffle and remain).  Technically, I see no reason why it could be treated as ending the battle, beyond the provision about being able to begin a new battle needing to complete; I would rule that this is simply 'delayed' waiting for battle resolution.

So no, I see nothing to say that Grapes ends the battle with an End the Battle effect, though it often does end the battle by definition (very different).

Note also that any heroes remaining stops any chance of making another battle, and by rule no player may rescue another soul in battle until all other players have a turn.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 01, 2014, 05:33:50 PM

Note also that any heroes remaining stops any chance of making another battle, and by rule no player may rescue another soul in battle until all other players have a turn.

Agreed on the fist statement being a hard stop. One of the features of a SA is to override game rules, however, so if the "no Heroes remain in battle" restriction were not there...

It does not matter.  You can begin a battle, but it is a battle challenge.  The rule is that you cannot rescue another soul in battle until EACH of your opponents have a turn.  That you can start a battle is irrelevant, you still can't rescue.

Firstly, the "no hero remains in battle" clause was added as an errata in part because of the issue you are pointing to.

Secondly, am I remembering correctly that it was ruled that if you block with one or more ATC(s), snipe a hero(es), and play an end the battle enhancement, ie forgotten history, then the ATC(s) returned to territory because it's triggered discard wasn't allowed to resolve.

So interrupting the battle and then playing an End the Battle card is effectively a negate?

Agree, it's not the same as negate.  However, anything still suspended by interrupt cannot reactivate when End the Battle is played.

It's not that you can't undo the undo, it's that the ability cannot reactivate and then stays suspended (fizzling since the battle is over).