Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on January 11, 2010, 08:30:39 PM
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Destructive Sin has been placed on my Hero. Does DS continue to negate my Forts and Covs if my Hero gets set-aside? What about if my Hero is captured?
Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants.
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also, can it negate a chamber of angels? i know some things default to in play, but ds says 'owner', and chamber of angels does have an owner...
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If you hero is captured I do not believe it stays.... I just don't know the rule lol. It might be, since you have to place it one a hero, that it not longer "remains" because the card type it was place on changed? I don't know. I know it stays if it goes to set aside but I don't think it's active since it's no longer in play, and the whole "default to play" rule. I think this would be ruled the same as the "magic charms on a magician set aside with two possessed by demons" rule, and I THINK that rule was ruled the artifact no longer stays active in set-aside, but I'm not sure.
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Hey,
Destructive Sin has been placed on my Hero. Does DS continue to negate my Forts and Covs if my Hero gets set-aside? What about if my Hero is captured?
Yes to both questions.
also, can it negate a chamber of angels? i know some things default to in play, but ds says 'owner', and chamber of angels does have an owner...
No, the "in play" default applies to Destructive Sin.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Thanks, Tim. I agree with your answer but I wanted to be sure.
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Destructive Sin has been placed on my Hero. Does DS continue to negate my Forts and Covs if my Hero gets set-aside? What about if my Hero is captured?
Yes to both questions.
Why? More specifically why does DS continue to work if the hero was set aside? It has been ruled that artifacts activated on characters (e.g., Priestly Breastplate) do not continue to function when the character is set aside. Why is a placed Destructive Sin different than a placed artifact?
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also, can it negate a chamber of angels? ...
No, the "in play" default applies to Destructive Sin.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
So am I understanding this to mean that Destructive Sin does not negate Chamber of Angels because it is set aside?
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correct. By default, cards only effect card that are in play. Set aside area is out of play.
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Destructive Sin has been placed on my Hero. Does DS continue to negate my Forts and Covs if my Hero gets set-aside? What about if my Hero is captured?
Yes to both questions.
Why? More specifically why does DS continue to work if the hero was set aside? It has been ruled that artifacts activated on characters (e.g., Priestly Breastplate) do not continue to function when the character is set aside. Why is a placed Destructive Sin different than a placed artifact?
this is also the way i have understood it as well.
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Hey,
[W]hy does DS continue to work if the hero was set aside? It has been ruled that artifacts activated on characters (e.g., Priestly Breastplate) do not continue to function when the character is set aside. Why is a placed Destructive Sin different than a placed artifact?
A placed enhancement remains active "while placed" or basically for the rest of the game. An activated artifact remains active for one round. In both cases if you set aside the hero that the card is on it completes it's "current" activation. For the placed card that means it continues to work until the end of the game. For the artifact it means it continues to work until the end of the round. After the round the artifact must be activated again to remain in effect, but the hero it was on is no longer a valid target to activate it on because the hero is out of play.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I agree with Tim.
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[W]hy does DS continue to work if the hero was set aside? It has been ruled that artifacts activated on characters (e.g., Priestly Breastplate) do not continue to function when the character is set aside. Why is a placed Destructive Sin different than a placed artifact?
A placed enhancement remains active "while placed" or basically for the rest of the game. An activated artifact remains active for one round. In both cases if you set aside the hero that the card is on it completes it's "current" activation. For the placed card that means it continues to work until the end of the game. For the artifact it means it continues to work until the end of the round. After the round the artifact must be activated again to remain in effect, but the hero it was on is no longer a valid target to activate it on because the hero is out of play.
I'm sorry for being dense, but given that explanation I have new confusion about how Priestly Breastplate ever worked.
Priestly Breastplate SA Negate all ignore and repel abilities on Characters and Enhancements. May be placed on a good High Priest when activated.
It was ruled that you cannot activate both Priestly Breastplate and a second artifact on the artifact pile in the same turn. Specifically that Priestly Breastplate had to be activated--which took up your artifact pile activation slot--and only after activation occurred could it be placed. (This is contradistinction with Magic Charms which says "May be activated on a Magician.") Is this ruling correct?
It has also been ruled that in rounds subsequent to placing Priestly Breastplate on a Priest you could activate other artifacts using your artifact pile activation slot and Priestly Breastplate remained active. (Being able to activate a second artifact in addition to Priestly Breastplate was the primary reason for including the "place" part of the SA.) Is this ruling correct?
Finally it has been ruled that if the Priest on whom Priestly Breastplate is placed is set aside, that Priestly Breastplate ceases to negate ignore abilities. Is this ruling correct?
Given what was written above, I cannot see how all three of those rulings can all be correct. Which are correct and why?
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I bring beef!
Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants.
Based on the rule that "own" = "permanently control," if a hero were captured, other than with a card like Dungeon of Malchiah or Night Raid which would put the card in the current owner's land of bondage, wouldn't the capturer become the owner?
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"Owner" is always the person from whose deck the card came. Sometimes the "control" of a card changes (capture, Taking Egypts Wealth, banding to opponent's character), but the ownership always remains the same.
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Well yeah, that's what I thought it was, but I recall a certain thread which I am naturally unable to find where it was ruled that own = permanently control, like in the case of Seven Wicked Spirits.
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I dont see why a placed card remains active in a set-aside area...if that were the case it should say "while this card remains in play or set-aside" not just remains because i was under the impression that if not stated specifically that it defaults to in play?
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The rule is that targets default to in play. DS has targets heroes and fortresses, not itself.
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i would understand that to be hero's and fortresses defaulted in play. Am i wrong in this line of thinking?
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Right. The heroes and fortresses are targets, and the targets default to those in play. DS is not itself a target, so the default to in play rule doesn't affect it.
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it seems confusing to me as a host to explain that artifacts dont work in setaside areas and place cards do
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Hey,
it seems confusing to me as a host to explain that artifacts dont work in setaside areas and place cards do
Artifacts do work in set aside.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Artifacts do work in set aside.
For the artifact it means it continues to work until the end of the round. After the round the artifact must be activated again to remain in effect, but the hero it was on is no longer a valid target to activate it on because the hero is out of play.
Wat.
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You said after the first round they didn't though.
A placed enhancement remains active "while placed" or basically for the rest of the game. An activated artifact remains active for one round. In both cases if you set aside the hero that the card is on it completes it's "current" activation. For the placed card that means it continues to work until the end of the game. For the artifact it means it continues to work until the end of the round. After the round the artifact must be activated again to remain in effect, but the hero it was on is no longer a valid target to activate it on because the hero is out of play.
So two things, I can deactivate an artifact on a hero? AND Artifacts regardless of placements ability only last till the end of the round? O_o; I am confused.
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Yes, this is a necropost. No it isn't invalid. I came into this situation in a recent game and need understanding.
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Yes, this is a necropost. No it isn't invalid. I came into this situation in a recent game and need understanding.
Especially since no one ever answered MJB's last post.
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Yes, this is a necropost. No it isn't invalid. I came into this situation in a recent game and need understanding.
Especially since no one ever answered MJB's last post.
They did in a different thread. Short and sweet, Priestly Breastplate eats up your artifact pile activation slot every single turn, placed on a Priest or no.
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Are you sure "they" wasn't "Nobody?" Unless a real PTB said that we need closure, as Nobody's stance is HOTLY contested and he doesn't have rubber-stamp powers.
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+1 Pol
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Are you sure "they" wasn't "Nobody?" Unless a real PTB said that we need closure, as Nobody's stance is HOTLY contested and he doesn't have rubber-stamp powers.
Though I feel Nobody gets slammed a little too often (maybe just by you), I will vouch for anything to give PB a second chance to be the awesome it was meant to be.
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If you stick your neck out, be prepared to have people take hacks at it.
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If you stick your neck out, be prepared to have people take hacks at it.
Thank you for these wise words of advice which I have no idea how to apply to the situation.
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Hey,
Are you sure "they" wasn't "Nobody?" Unless a real PTB said that we need closure, as Nobody's stance is HOTLY contested and he doesn't have rubber-stamp powers.
Only Rob has rubber stamp powers. He's given authority to the PTB because he shouldn't have to chime in on every ruling question that raises a little debate.
Tim is a real PTB. He earned that position and Rob has granted him that authority. Tim is going to give you an accurate answer just as often as any of the PTB and even more often than some.
Tim has done an excellent job in the past few years helping guide Redemption to a more consistent system of "top down" rules. Sometimes that means that his ideas are ahead of their time and not official when he originally presents them, but they become official later. For the most part he does a pretty good job of stating when he's giving an opinion/idea of how things should be versus an official ruling.
Tschow,
Gabe
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so if I activate Priestly Breastplate on a priest and before my next activation I set him aside indefinatly does the artifact stay active indefinatly as well thus freeing up my art pile?
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Tim makes wrong rulings with greater regularity than most, probably because he makes a ruling too soon. He's right more than he's wrong, but he's wrong too often to be highly reliable. And I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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You may not be the only one, but its a small minority.
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I don't think it's as small as you believe it to be. But the facts should speak for themselves.
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so if I activate Priestly Breastplate on a priest and before my next activation I set him aside indefinatly does the artifact stay active indefinatly as well thus freeing up my art pile?
No. The ruling is that the artifact stays active until your next prep phase. At that point it needs to be reactivated, which would eating up your art pile activation slot. Furthermore, you cannot replace it on the same priest, because the place cannot target a set aside character.
This interpretation come from Sir Nobody, which is where Pol's concern (fair or unfair) arises. This ruling has been mentioned on at least three threads--including one in which Bryon participated--and has not been contravened by any other member of the rulings junta.
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We should just hang the Priestly Breastplate on the Cross Beams of the Cross and stick them in the corner of the garage.
:-\
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you forgot strength in weakness.
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Nor have any other PTB confirmed, a suspicious fact in light of many people disputing that this is the way it's actually played repeatedly. All it would take is Bryon saying, "Nobody is right, Artifacts must be reactivated each round and we have no intention of adding an option to simply leave it active where it is. Here's hoping we don't forget to specify that it stays there when we make a card that lets you activate Asherah Pole in ST." But no PTB has done so, so I continue to find the knee-jerk ruling highly suspect and invalid. If I were hosting a tournament, I'd rule in favor of Priestly Breastplate.
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If I were hosting a tournament, I'd rule in favor of Priestly Breastplate.
Which just goes to show if a player is building a deck around this, he/she should attempt to verify ahead of time which way the tournament judge would rule.
Whoo-hoo.
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If I were hosting a tournament, I'd rule in favor of Priestly Breastplate.
Which just goes to show if a player is building a deck around this, he/she should attempt to verify ahead of time which way the tournament judge would rule.
Whoo-hoo.
I think Arizona is way within its bounds to regula...
...wait, uh...nevermind. Wrong debate. I think??
;)
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you forgot strength in weakness.
And satan's folly and the EMS.
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And how in the world did STAMP of all people... forget A New-tered Beginning?
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True. I was just focused on artifacts that can be held by someone which I guess was supposed to be this great new concept in the game, but truly adds nothing, zilch, zero, nada to what we have already. :-\
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One could also argue that the Artifact is "placed" and therefore continues to have its effect without taking up an Artifact slot in the future. But doing so would preclude you from being able to de-activate it at will; you basically would be stuck with it as a "placed" card, and not an "activated on" card.
I favor letting Breastplate stay without clogging the pile but I don't yet know which solution has the better support from the rules. I would think, not being certain of an answer, that staying out of the discussion would be the wiser course of action when people want something definitive.
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I would think, not being certain of an answer, that staying out of the discussion would be the wiser course of action when people want something definitive.
This is why Nobody is less official than Schaef!
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Nice! (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19763.msg335239#msg335239)
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Well, he was when I posted that. Notice, though, he still doesn't have rubber stamp unless he's merely reporting something already decided. I did like how Rob made it look like the list was hierarchical and put Nobody at 2, even though there is no differentiation between the people on that list. :D
However, some people will misinterpret that list as Nobody having rubber-stamp (as opposed to nobody), and I sincerely hope he will act with greater candor about the difference between his interpretation of a ruling and a set-in-stone this-is-how-it-is ruling.
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Quote from: BrianGabe on January 12, 2010, 02:30:39 AM
Destructive Sin has been placed on my Hero. Does DS continue to negate my Forts and Covs if my Hero gets set-aside? What about if my Hero is captured?
Yes to both questions.
back to the original question
Tim might be right that DS remains and that it still negates if your hero is set-aside but I think that he has to be wrong about it negating if captured. The way DS is worded it says to place on a hero and negate THAT HERO's ability and IT'S owners good fortresses and covenants. Now by definition isn't a "captured hero" not the same as a hero? The ability to negate depends on referencing the hero it is on and it isn't on a hero anymore. So there is no "THAT HERO" or "IT'S".
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Here's how I see it:
Placed enhancements, once placed, are active until they are discarded. Once DS is placed on a Hero, the Hero doesn't have to remain a Hero for DS to remain placed. The condition for DS to be active is that it is PLACED (read: put) on a hero (like any other placed enhancement) not that it IS on a Hero. When DS was placed, the Hero's owner's Forts and Covenants became negated, and continue to be negated while DS is on its target.
So, in effect, I believe a captured Hero can still retain an active Destructive Sin.
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Right but my point is not whether or not it remains placed or active but whether or not it does anything.
I would think of it like the Destruction ruling. Since you can't discard Lampstand there is no artifact for it to target with negate because it refers to that (discarded) artifact. DS can be active but when determining which Forts are negated, you would say the ones of the holder of the hero. What hero? The hero that DS is placed on. But there is no such hero.
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Right but my point is not whether or not it remains placed or active but whether or not it does anything.
I would think of it like the Destruction ruling. Since you can't discard Lampstand there is no artifact for it to target with negate because it refers to that (discarded) artifact. DS can be active but when determining which Forts are negated, you would say the ones of the holder of the hero. What hero? The hero that DS is placed on. But there is no such hero.
The way I see it, it targets the Fortresses of the owner of the Hero DS was placed on when it first became active, regardless of the state of that Hero now (as long as it's on the table still). I can understand your position, and you could be right, but personally I don't think so (obviously).
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Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants.
I wonder if Destructive Sin doesn't have an implied "that Hero", as in "While this card remains on that Hero". Immediately following in that same sentence it even references "that Hero". If that's correct and "that Hero" ceases to be a Hero then I would expect DS to have no effect although it would still remain placed since nothing is removing it.
Similarly, cards that nobody uses like the one below would not continue to work after the Lost Soul becomes a Redeemed Soul.
Consumed by Wants
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this card on a Lost Soul. While this card remains, holder's black brigade demons gain 4/4.
I'm not certain which way is correct, it just seems to make more sense to me that if the card type changes then the placed card wouldn't continue to work.
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anymore on this?
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Right but my point is not whether or not it remains placed or active but whether or not it does anything.
I would think of it like the Destruction ruling. Since you can't discard Lampstand there is no artifact for it to target with negate because it refers to that (discarded) artifact. DS can be active but when determining which Forts are negated, you would say the ones of the holder of the hero. What hero? The hero that DS is placed on. But there is no such hero.
I agree with this, and with Gabe's comments.
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Hey,
One could also argue that the Artifact is "placed" and therefore continues to have its effect without taking up an Artifact slot in the future.
Remember the Herod's Treachery discussion? In it we established that the effect that continues to be implemented after the card is placed is whatever appears on the card after the place ability. Sadly, in the case of Priestly Breastplate that would be nothing.
Similarly, cards that nobody uses like the one below would not continue to work after the Lost Soul becomes a Redeemed Soul.
Consumed by Wants
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this card on a Lost Soul. While this card remains, holder's black brigade demons gain 4/4.
The New REG says, "Any card placed on a lost soul is discarded if the lost soul is relocated to a location outside the land of bondage it was in."
So Consumed by Wants would be discarded if the soul it is on is rescued. (While that quote is from the New REG, I'm pretty sure it's just copied over from the current rules, I'm just not sure where in the current rules I got it from.)
I wonder if Destructive Sin doesn't have an implied "that Hero", as in "While this card remains on that Hero". Immediately following in that same sentence it even references "that Hero". If that's correct and "that Hero" ceases to be a Hero then I would expect DS to have no effect although it would still remain placed since nothing is removing it.
My understand is that "While this card remains" on Destructive Sin is simply a restatement of the implied condition "while the placed card remains in the location it is placed in." But the reference to "that Hero" and later to "its" (which I understand to have the antecedent 'that Hero') would cause Destructive Sin to cease having any effect if the Hero it is on is captured because there would be no "that Hero" for it to reference and thus no valid targets for it's negate ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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My understand is that "While this card remains" on Destructive Sin is simply a restatement of the implied condition "while the placed card remains in the location it is placed in." But the reference to "that Hero" and later to "its" (which I understand to have the antecedent 'that Hero') would cause Destructive Sin to cease having any effect if the Hero it is on is captured because there would be no "that Hero" for it to reference and thus no valid targets for it's negate ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
what do you mean by location in the above quote?