Author Topic: Destructive sin (Read 3977 times)

slugfencer · « **on:** May 06, 2010, 04:37:38 PM »

Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants.

Does destructive sin (placed on a hero) still work in set-aside?

Thanks!

CountFount · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2010, 04:39:26 PM »

And does it work if the Hero is captured?

adotson85 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2010, 04:45:58 PM »

Yes it works while the hero is set aside. No it is discarded if the hero is captured.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 04:45:58 PM

No it is discarded if the hero is captured.

Why?

adotson85 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2010, 05:54:57 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM

Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
No it is discarded if the hero is captured.

Why?

The REG says all WC enhancements are discarded when a character is captured, but does not specificly mention placed enhancements. However, Destructive Sin says "place on a Hero" and when the hero is captured he becomes a lost soul and is no longer a hero. That is why I say the enhancement is discarded.

alpal455 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2010, 06:03:52 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 05:54:57 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
No it is discarded if the hero is captured.

Why?

The REG says all WC enhancements are discarded when a character is captured, but does not specificly mention placed enhancements. However, Destructive Sin says "place on a Hero" and when the hero is captured he becomes a lost soul and is no longer a hero. That is why I say the enhancement is discarded.

Yes but he was a hero when it was placed on. And besides isn't a captured hero still considered a hero just treated as a lost soul?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2010, 06:05:48 PM »

Quote from: alpal455 on May 06, 2010, 06:03:52 PM

Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 05:54:57 PM
Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: adotson85 on May 06, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
No it is discarded if the hero is captured.

Why?

The REG says all WC enhancements are discarded when a character is captured, but does not specificly mention placed enhancements. However, Destructive Sin says "place on a Hero" and when the hero is captured he becomes a lost soul and is no longer a hero. That is why I say the enhancement is discarded.

Yes but he was a hero when it was placed on. And besides isn't a captured hero still considered a hero just treated as a lost soul?

nope. captured heroes are not heroes.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2010, 07:58:46 PM »

DS says:

Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ecclesiastes 9:18 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

The initial target for the placement is the Hero. A captured Hero is not a hero, so you can't place it on a captured hero, but if the hero it is on becomes a captured hero, there is no rule that says it is discarded.

However, it does not continue to keep working while that Hero is a Captured Hero. Since it says: "that Hero and it's owner's..." it must be on an actual Hero (not just a captured Hero) in order to keep negating.

alpal455 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2010, 08:37:06 PM »

If you capture the hero would it negate your fortresses and covenents.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2010, 09:19:58 PM »

Quote from: alpal455 on May 06, 2010, 08:37:06 PM

If you capture the hero would it negate your fortresses and covenents.

no. but it would remain placed.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:19:42 PM »

That doesn't make much sense to me. If a placed card (WC) is d/c'd when captured why not a placed (D sin) be d/c'd? Not that I mind. Self capturing my own heroes is fun.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:20:58 PM »

furthermore, i dont understand why if it does remain, why it does not continue to negate fortresses and covies...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:30:03 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on May 06, 2010, 10:19:42 PM

That doesn't make much sense to me. If a placed card (WC) is d/c'd when captured why not a placed (D sin) be d/c'd? Not that I mind. Self capturing my own heroes is fun.

captured heroes are not W/C. placement cards have already occured and don't check constantly to see if it's a hero. W/C does.

Quote from: Master KChief on May 06, 2010, 10:20:58 PM

furthermore, i dont understand why if it does remain, why it does not continue to negate fortresses and covies...

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 07:58:46 PM

The initial target for the placement is the Hero. A captured Hero is not a hero, so you can't place it on a captured hero, but if the hero it is on becomes a captured hero, there is no rule that says it is discarded.

However, it does not continue to keep working while that Hero is a Captured Hero. Since it says: "that Hero and it's owner's..." it must be on an actual Hero (not just a captured Hero) in order to keep negating.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:35:50 PM »

If it checked to see if its a hero how come weapons convert?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:40:19 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on May 06, 2010, 10:35:50 PM

If it checked to see if its a hero how come weapons convert?

because weapons are not technically good and evil, so they follow their master. their holder stays W/C, so the enhancement follows.

Master KChief · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:42:59 PM »

is there anything in the language of the card that suggests that it must be on a hero to keep working? i would think not.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:45:51 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on May 06, 2010, 10:42:59 PM

is there anything in the language of the card that suggests that it must be on a hero to keep working? i would think not.

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 07:58:46 PM

Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ecclesiastes 9:18 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Master KChief · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:50:49 PM »

yes, i understand 'that hero' would not work. however, i also see 'while this card remains' as the operative phrase. is it still remaining? yes, so do this: negate the heroes abilites. can it do that? no, go to the next part: negate fortresses and covies. again, please show me where 'negate special abilities on that hero' and 'its owners good fortresses and covenants' are contingent upon each other.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:52:09 PM »

What is the "it" in "its owner" referring to? "That hero." So, you can translate the ability as, "While this card remains [on that card], negate special abilities on that Hero and [that Hero's] owner's good Fortresses and Covenants." This is why the card DS is on must remain a hero in order for DS to work.

EDIT: Made an edit but changed it back...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:56:22 PM »

personally, I think I'll agree with KChief. Prof?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2010, 11:02:43 PM »

I agree with BB. "It's owner" refers to "the heroes' owner". Since there is no longer a hero, there is no longer a "heroes' owner". Therefore, the special ability negating fortresses cannot apply any longer.

Ehud Cubed · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2010, 12:08:54 AM »

I think the REG would suggest that destructive sin would stay with the hero, as placed cards stay with the target card until the target is discarded, or returned to the draw pile or hand. Capture does not strictly fall into this category, so I would think that the placed card would follow in this instance.

That being said, once the hero is captured, he is no longer considered a hero, but a lost soul, and is no longer controlled by its original owner (unless the capture card used was dungeon of malchiah) The 'owner' of the card changes with control I believe.

Another question to ask would be what happens if the hero is converted to an ec? The rules of conversion negate the SA on the hero, making destructive sin redundant in that regard, but does the second effect still work to negate the owners good fortresses and covenants?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2010, 12:49:44 AM »

Quote from: Ehud Cubed on May 07, 2010, 12:08:54 AM

I think the REG would suggest that destructive sin would stay with the hero, as placed cards stay with the target card until the target is discarded, or returned to the draw pile or hand. Capture does not strictly fall into this category, so I would think that the placed card would follow in this instance.

That being said, once the hero is captured, he is no longer considered a hero, but a lost soul, and is no longer controlled by its original owner (unless the capture card used was dungeon of malchiah) The 'owner' of the card changes with control I believe.

Another question to ask would be what happens if the hero is converted to an ec? The rules of conversion negate the SA on the hero, making destructive sin redundant in that regard, but does the second effect still work to negate the owners good fortresses and covenants?

I never thought of it like that. they Destructive sin you, you activate Stalks of Flax and laugh. brilliant. I no longer have to worry about DS!

Bryon · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2010, 02:30:14 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 06, 2010, 07:58:46 PM

The initial target for the placement is the Hero. A captured Hero is not a hero, so you can't place it on a captured hero, but if the hero it is on becomes a captured hero, there is no rule that says it is discarded.

However, it does not continue to keep working while that Hero is a Captured Hero. Since it says: "that Hero and it's owner's..." it must be on an actual Hero (not just a captured Hero) in order to keep negating.

Correct on all counts.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2010, 09:58:09 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on May 07, 2010, 12:49:44 AM

Quote from: Ehud Cubed on May 07, 2010, 12:08:54 AM
I think the REG would suggest that destructive sin would stay with the hero, as placed cards stay with the target card until the target is discarded, or returned to the draw pile or hand. Capture does not strictly fall into this category, so I would think that the placed card would follow in this instance.

That being said, once the hero is captured, he is no longer considered a hero, but a lost soul, and is no longer controlled by its original owner (unless the capture card used was dungeon of malchiah) The 'owner' of the card changes with control I believe.

Another question to ask would be what happens if the hero is converted to an ec? The rules of conversion negate the SA on the hero, making destructive sin redundant in that regard, but does the second effect still work to negate the owners good fortresses and covenants?
I never thought of it like that. they Destructive sin you, you activate Stalks of Flax and laugh. brilliant. I no longer have to worry about DS!

Stalks of Flax does not change the owner of the card. So based on the wording of DS, it still stops your Forts.

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Author Topic: Destructive sin (Read 3977 times)

slugfencer

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