Cactus Game Design Message Boards

There appears to be some contradiction in the REG as to what constitutes a defeat in battle.

First we see defeat as it's defined by the REG.

Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

The first sentence in the definition contradicts the bolded statement.  The italicized portion indicates that a character must be losing by the numbers to be defeated.  To the best of my knowledge a stalemate or only causing a rescue attempt to fail (via protection like Uzzah or Failed Objective) without removing the Hero have never been considered "defeat".  If causing a rescue attempt to fail is indeed a "defeat" then the Potipher's Wife + Failed Objective combo would work to capture a Hero.  We've been told many, many, many times that doesn't work.

For my next witness I'll call forth the rulebook definition of Stalemate.

Stalemate
The rescue attempt ends in a stalemate if neither the Hero(es) nor the Evil Character(s) have enough strength to defeat the other. Both the Hero(es)and the Evil Character(s) withdraw to their respective territories. All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards placed on other cards during battle) are discarded. No Lost Soul is rescued. This is considered a defeat of the Hero since the Hero was unable to make a successful rescue.

Again the definition contradicts itself.  The first sentence says the characters don't defeat each other.  The last sentence says the Hero is defeated because the rescue attempt failed.  Can it really be both ways?

We see that there's no mention of defeat in the REG definition of Stalemate.

Stalemate
A stalemate is a state of battle or outcome of a battle. It occurs when neither character has strength greater than or equal to the opposing character’s toughness. (See Stalemate under Battle Phase in the rulebook).

It might also be helpful to look at the description of a stalemate by the numbers.

Stalemate by Numbers
The battle is currently a stalemate by numbers when neither the Hero(es) nor the Evil Character(s) is strong enough to defeat the opposing character(s).

Again we see a Stalemate referred to as two characters not defeating one another.

Finally, we can look outside of the seemingly contradictory definitions at some examples of individual cards and find even more uncertainty.

Potiphar’s Wife
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: When character defeats a male Hero in the Field of Battle, the Hero is taken prisoner and placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul. • Play As: All male characters defeated (by a win or stalemate) by Potiphar’s Wife in battle are taken prisoner and placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul.

Here we see defeat referred to as a win or stalemate again.

Fallen Warrior
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: This character gains the cumulative abilities (*/*) of each Hero he successfully blocks. • Play As: This character gains the cumulative abilities (*/*) of each Hero he successfully blocks (stalemate or defeat).

The separate reference to "stalemate or defeat" seems to indicate that they aren't the same thing.  If a stalemate is a defeat, why not just say defeat?

Is anyone else as confused as I am? 

I understand that a stalemate is a successful block but it is also a defeat? 

Is a successful block and a defeat the same thing?

Or maybe not.  A few posts later...

A Hero defeats an EC by winning outright, or mutual by numbers.
An EC defeats (or successfully blocks) a Hero by winning outright, stalemate, or mutual by special ability.

I think the first quote from the REG says it best.  If a character's objective is stopped, then they were defeated.

Therefore, stalemate would be defeating a hero (who fails to rescue a LS), but not defeating and EC (who successfully blocked).

This seems to be the most intuitive meaning of the word "defeat".  If I stop you from rescuing a LS, then I defeated you.

Sadly if memory serves (As someone who has tried nigh everything with pot's wife) The definition is 'No lost soul rescued with an evil character in battle'. Lemme look for a quote

If the Hero lives and you don't, you are not defeating the Hero.  Defeat is tied to winning the battle.  There's a lot of talk about the "fail to make a rescue" portion but it more generally means "fails to be the winning guy".  It's just that in this definition, as in a great number of other portions of the rules discussing battles, the rescue is sort of assumed for purposes of explanation, rather than saying "rescue or battle challenge" every time.

The examples of "stalemate" and "mutual by numbers" were added to REG phrasing in an attempt to clarify that these sentences were referring to other battle outcome scenarios besides Hero wins/EC wins.  Mutual by numbers is not a clear last-man-standing win, but because the Hero wins as a result, the Hero defeats the EC.  Similarly, mutual by removal and stalemate are winning scenarios for the EC, and so the EC is defeating the Hero.

Because Failed Objective discards all ECs, and Heroes are surviving, the Heroes win the battle, and therefore have defeated the EC.

Seems the defeat quote is just outdated.

Correct.

Outright wins and mutual by numbers are winning scenarios for the Hero.
Outright wins, stalemate, and mutual by removal are winning scenarios for the EC.
Any character which remains in battle for the winning side is considered to have defeated any opposing characters that took part in the battle. Also, when Evil Characters win by removing all characters from battle by a special ability, Evil Characters that were in battle at the moment of removal are considered to have defeated any Heroes that took part in the battle.

This is the short version of a proposed revised definition I offered, and it seemed to be met with satisfaction, but no movement has taken place.

Part of the confusion is that "winning" and "defeating" are also used to describe when one side is beating the other side outright, and not just to define the state of battle when you're cleaning up during Battle Resolution.  My earlier posts don't seem to have helped as much as I would have liked, but RR found the key statement by which I am now going forward on this issue.