Author Topic: Pharoah's Cupbearer (Read 4871 times)

KingLeo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:59:24 AM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on June 24, 2012, 06:10:42 PM

No one else has a problem with a hero becoming a lost soul to bring out another hero?

Well in the story even though he becomes good....He dies at the hand of pharoh..that is why he is able to allow himself harm.

KingLeo

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #26 on:** June 25, 2012, 08:26:06 AM »

Someone may want to reread their Bible story

.

The Baker is the one who dies by Pharaoh, as Joseph interpreted from the dream. The Cupbearer ends up working for Pharaoh later and is the one that told Pharaoh about Joseph....there is nothing to indicate the Cupbearer became "good" (he was just restored to his position) or died at Pharaoh's hand. Reread Genesis 40 and 41. As such, there is nothing to indicate that we are going to let a hero WILLINGLY become a Lost Soul so that another hero can come in his/her place...there are MANY issues with that concept...losing a battle while trying to rescue a Lost soul and becoming lost yourself is an entirely different model...But how many people are going to convert their cupbearer, anyway

?

Korunks · « **Reply #27 on:** June 25, 2012, 08:49:25 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 25, 2012, 06:25:42 AM

I realize that the intention was to allow him to work when converted, but I am arguing that he cannot. Unless the longtime standard for conversion has been changed, Cupbearer's SA no longer works since it targets a hero for harm. I would like Elder verification. I see that ProfAlstad made the ruling in the other thread, but I would like a different Elder's input/verification.

The Rule for abilities converting is that if they harm a hero at the time of conversion they do not convert. At conversion time he only harms an EC, which is of course himself.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #28 on:** June 25, 2012, 09:29:50 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on June 25, 2012, 08:49:25 AM

The Rule for abilities converting is that if they harm a hero at the time of conversion they do not convert. At conversion time he only harms an EC, which is of course himself.

This is also my understanding of the conversion rule.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #29 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:02:43 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on June 24, 2012, 06:10:42 PM

No one else has a problem with a hero becoming a lost soul to bring out another hero?

Self sacrifice is pretty big for heroes, and becoming lost souls isn't unheard of for heroes.

megamanlan · « **Reply #30 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:17:09 PM »

Capturing themselves is actually quite Common with Heroes.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #31 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:26:46 PM »

What other heroes have the option to be captured of their own will, rather than as a result of a battle (War Officer, Servant Girl, etc)

TimMierz · « **Reply #32 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:41:21 PM »

Only War Officer, Servant Girl, and Recruiting Officer capture themselves. No good enhancements capture a Hero either.

megamanlan · « **Reply #33 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »

I'm trying to remember one that does. Also, all of those are Optional too.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #34 on:** June 25, 2012, 04:02:42 PM »

Servant Girl (E)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If Servant Girl is about to be discarded in battle, instead place her in opponent’s Land of Bondage and treat her as a Lost Soul. • Identifiers: Generic OT Female Human • Verse: II Kings 5:2-3 • Availability: E Deck

War Officer (Ki)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 5 / 6 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Hero has access to any Site. If defeated, place in opponent's Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul. • Play As: Hero has access to any Site. If defeated, capture Hero and place in opponent's Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Kings 25:19 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

Recruiting Officer (Ki)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 6 / 4 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Hero has access to any Site. If defeated, place in opponent's Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul. • Play As: Hero has access to any Site. If defeated, capture Hero and place in opponent's Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Kings 25:19 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

How are any of those three optional? They are all triggered if defeated...

megamanlan · « **Reply #35 on:** June 25, 2012, 04:45:30 PM »

I was under the impression they were Optional. But it still stands that self-sacrifice is one thing that Heroes do.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #36 on:** June 25, 2012, 04:51:15 PM »

Sampson's Sacrifice discards your hero, why should capturing them be any different?

Redoubter · « **Reply #37 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:02:37 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on June 25, 2012, 03:02:43 PM

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on June 24, 2012, 06:10:42 PM
No one else has a problem with a hero becoming a lost soul to bring out another hero?
Self sacrifice is pretty big for heroes, and becoming lost souls isn't unheard of for heroes.

This. It has been long-established that being in LoB can represent either spiritual or physical captivity (which is used to explain angels that are captured). What is more noble than to allow yourself to be captured to help the cause?

The card was specifically worded that way to allow it to work as an EC or as a hero. That was the intention and has been the rule for as long as the card has been out there. If you look, you'll find nothing to counter that in any rulings on the card, that no REPs had anything argumentative to say when this part of his ability was brought up as a plus for Cupbearer during April Fools, and I don't think you'll find an Elder who supports the thought that this does not work.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #38 on:** June 26, 2012, 03:21:58 PM »

This discussion is totally off-track. In order for an SA to not convert, it has to target a Hero specifically. The word "Hero(es)" (or "Good Character(s) on some older cards) has to be present in the SA as the target of the ability. Whether or not it may target a Hero has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether or not it is "harm" has nothing to do with it. Whether or not it's something a Hero would be likely to do has nothing to do with it. Only whether it specifically targets a "Hero."

Professoralstad · « **Reply #39 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:13:29 PM »

I agree with Minister Polarius except for one caveat: If the special ability includes a name of a card, all targetable copies of which are Heroes, then it doesn't work. (for example, a converted Absalom or Sheba could not target David).

Like I said before, Pharaoh's Cupbearer was designed as a way to create a Lost Soul that you can then attack for with a new Genesis Hero if he gets converted. All of the playtesters agreed with this, and the special ability does work.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #40 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:26:49 PM »

Thanks for this conversation all, I don't often convert ECs so it helps to understand the specific details when judging. I can also understand why Cupbearer works now as too often I forget capture is not just spiritual but also physical (which definitely applies in CB's case). *Runs to find another soapbox to stand on*

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #41 on:** June 26, 2012, 11:39:50 PM »

Quote

If the special ability includes a name of a card, all targetable copies of which are Heroes, then it doesn't work.

I've never heard of this before, is it official? What if there's a David that's been Corrupted?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #42 on:** June 27, 2012, 11:01:43 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 26, 2012, 11:39:50 PM

I've never heard of this before, is it official?

Well I've never heard any of what you have said, so I guess many of us are in the dark.

Is the official rule for what converts written in detail somewhere? The last I ever saw written was what I had said earlier about harming heroes.

megamanlan · « **Reply #43 on:** June 27, 2012, 11:22:50 AM »

My understanding of Converts came from the Rulebook under the explaination of Convert.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #44 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:28:53 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 27, 2012, 11:22:50 AM

My understanding of Converts came from the Rulebook under the explaination of Convert.

Then your understanding is wrong.

megamanlan · « **Reply #45 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:40:59 PM »

I'm agreeing with what the Elders have said.

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Author Topic: Pharoah's Cupbearer (Read 4871 times)