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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on May 05, 2011, 12:04:56 AM
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OK so let me get this straight since i still dont understand and IM being called a jerk because of it.
I cant play anycards if opponent wants to play Mayhem after I draw?
Do I have to give my opponent some kind of special initiative to play Doms during my upkeep before i move on to the next phase?
Do I have to declare that im in the next phase?
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I had this pulled on me at nats and I wasnt happy. Because of Mayhem you are allowed to "hold" a phase over EVEN IF on your turn you want to move into the next phase they get the option to play Mayhem. It stinks and I wish it was changed but hey thats what happens when there is no more slap jack.
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That's... really actually pretty ridiculous. I've never been a fan of Mayhem to begin with, but rulings like that are enough for me to consider dropping the game.
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Hi,
Mayhem stinks sometimes, we get it, but you're basically asking us to undo years of precedent and bring back 'slap-jack' play. That's something that we're just not going to do.
The answer to your first question is a semi-no - You can in fact play cards after you draw, assuming that you're not slapping them down like a crazy person because you know your opponent is planning on playing Mayhem. Additionally, if you have reason to believe that your opponent has Mayhem, and you drop SoG/NJ right after your draw, I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time.
I'm going to leave your second question alone - While I think it would be really good to have a 'intiative level' for Dom's, it technically isn't something thats explicitly stated in the rules at this time.
The answer to your third question is 'No' You don't have to declare that you're going into your next phase, but you also can't go into that phase and start playing down every card in your hand.
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Actually the calling of "Mayhem after draw" should be clarified to mean "mayhem after draw...unless you have doms you are playing" because the person drawing is responding to their own actions so I say that any dom they want to/or intended to play should be allowed to be played.
After all, if we are going to follow the "respondign to own action" precedent, we shouldn't set it aside just because someone wants to play a mayhem
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Right, thus my first bullet point - Where I say I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time if you drop SoG/NJ post-draw.
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Right, thus my first bullet point - Where I say I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time if you drop SoG/NJ post-draw.
I was talking about those that want to type in "mayhem after draw" BEFORE people draw on RTS. in that case I say that, even though you typed, that, you have to give leeway to an opponent that wants to play a Dominant in response to their own draw
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Right, thus my first bullet point - Where I say I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time if you drop SoG/NJ post-draw.
Just curious: what would the 2% where you don't rule that way involve?
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Right, thus my first bullet point - Where I say I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time if you drop SoG/NJ post-draw.
I was talking about those that want to type in "mayhem after draw" BEFORE people draw on RTS. in that case I say that, even though you typed, that, you have to give leeway to an opponent that wants to play a Dominant in response to their own draw
I think there needs to be a rule on what actually can be played after someone has already said they are playing mayhem after draw. I'm all for allowing doms only myself, but whatever would be ruled in a f2f game should be the same as online. Online play and f2f games should be consistent. How would most judges rule this:
Player 1 is finishing his turn and before he ends turn he says, "Mayhem after your d3".
Player 1 ends turn.
Player 2 d3's, no LS's, but then plays his own mayhem that was included in the d3(does it have to be in the d3?)
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I would rule for that the first guy shouldn't have said that he was going to play Mayhem, and the second shouldn't have actually played it.
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I would let the second player play his Mayhem. It did what I wanted it to do without me having to play a card.
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The answer to your first question is a semi-no - You can in fact play cards after you draw, assuming that you're not slapping them down like a crazy person because you know your opponent is planning on playing Mayhem.
How is the person holding Mayhem supposed to know whether the card the person was reaching for in his hand to put down is a character or a lost soul?
The answer to your first question is a semi-no - You can in fact play cards after you draw, assuming that you're not slapping them down like a crazy person because you know your opponent is planning on playing Mayhem. Additionally, if you have reason to believe that your opponent has Mayhem, and you drop SoG/NJ right after your draw, I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time.
How is the person holding one piece to the puzzle supposed to get it them off fast enough, before mayhem or even before to tie, when he draws the second?
Right, thus my first bullet point - Where I say I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time if you drop SoG/NJ post-draw.
Just curious: what would the 2% where you don't rule that way involve?
Probably if it isn't obvious that your opponent is playing mayhem and they slap it down after claiming they want to play it or if person with Mayhem noticeably pauses.
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I agree that a precedent should be agreed upon and announced, so that people see it. If the ruling is going to be that only Doms can be played if an opponent plays Mayhem immediately after drawing, then there are mini-rulings that need to go into that. Can doms that were in the hand before the draw be used? What about doms that were drawn that turn?
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Doms can only be played if in fact they are played before Mayhem or at the same time as Mayhem. Otherwise even the Doms get shuffled.
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It is impossible to play a dominant after I draw before my opponents plays mayhem though, or even in a clear tie, because the card you want to play has to come from your deck to your hand and onto the table, meanwhile you have no time to process your draw. Your opponent only has to wait for the cards to hit your hand.
Your post also seems to contradict John's statement.
The answer to your first question is a semi-no - Additionally, if you have reason to believe that your opponent has Mayhem, and you drop SoG/NJ right after your draw, I'll rule in your favor 98% of the time.
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We've already been over this in another recent thread, but...
If you want to play Mayhem right after your opponent's upkeep phase (when they draw cards), then you may announce it ahead of time and put it down as they draw. The pros of this are that they could put down any cards after drawing other than dominants. The cons of this are that they now know that you are going to play Mayhem, and therefore may choose to play some dominants faster than they would have otherwise, but that is the risk you take.
How could they play those dominants? It is because as they draw, they might draw something that they would normally want to play immediately (ie. SoG/NJ for the win, or GoYS), and so they and you want to play a dominant at the same time. Therefore, because it is a tie, they get to play first since they are responding to their own action (drawing the SoG or GoYS).
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What about the other doms? It seems that the announcement of playing mayhem would increase your opponents chance of playing doms that they wouldn't play as fast vs no announcement.
If they give you the mayhem after d3, can you give them back the, ok, np, I'm going to play all the doms I can before that mayhem starts though. That way you minimize the impact of mayhem.
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It seems that the announcement of playing mayhem would increase your opponents chance of playing doms that they wouldn't play as fast vs no announcement.
Yes, this is a risk you take when you announce you're playing of Mayhem ahead of time. However, you hope that the risk is compensated for by not allowing them to play their other cards (besides doms), and also by knowing that if they do play their doms before they normally would that they are NOT playing the doms as well as possible.
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so if they dont announce that they are playing Mayhem after i draw and i draw 3, are you saying that I can immediately move into my prep phase and place cards down?
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Yeah, of course you can. You don't have to sit there and let them respond. That would make games take all day.
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OK now Im confused because I was told that I have to wait and let my opponent play Doms during my upkeep even if I dont have any actions during my upkeep. (and i do agree with this btw)
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so if they dont announce that they are playing Mayhem after i draw and i draw 3, are you saying that I can immediately move into my prep phase and place cards down?
The key here is to avoid slapjack. Redemption is supposed to be a strategy card game, not Egyptian Ratscrew :)
After you draw your cards and replace any LSs, then typically just pause for a bit to allow them to play any dominants before proceeding with your prep phase. If they're going to play Mayhem, they'll be ready and waiting, and it should come quickly. If it doesn't, then feel free to put down some characters in your territory, turn on artifacts, etc.
The one caveat to this is that out of respect it would be nice to ask you opponent if they are playing in a way that leads you to suspect a Mayhem is coming. For example, if my opponent chooses to go first in the game, and then puts down all but 2 cards from their hand, then I'm going to expect to get Mayhem'd right after I take my first draw. In that case I would probably just ask them if they wanted to Mayhem before moving on to my prep phase (after playing whatever dominants that I would have normally played first). This isn't an actual rule, it is simply courtesy. However, it could also avoid having to get a judge's ruling :)
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This is what I think SHOULD be the ruling:
No cards can be played during the draw phase or the upkeep phase, right? So, the dominants don't get to be played until the start of the preparation phase.
How do we know that the preparation phase has begun? When the active player takes a preparation phase action. What is one of the actions that can happen at the start of the preparation phase? A player can play dominants, place a card from hand into territory, put a lost soul in a site, activate an artifact, etc. If no preparation phase actions have happened yet, then the preparation phase has not yet begun. The ACTIVE player gets to decide when to start performing prep phase actions. The other players DO NOT start a phase on MY turn.
It is similar to the battle phase, which doesn't begin until the active player puts a hero (or EC with Taunt) into the battle. The other players can do nothing during the battle phase until the active player has begun the phase by placing a hero into battle. You don't need to declare the battle phase begun before you put a hero into battle. You just do it. You "declare" the battle phase begun by performing the first battle phase action.
So, it seems to me that Mayhem shouldn't be allowed to be played until the prep phase has truly begun, which doesn't happen until a player has completed one prep phase action. In that case, the active player could play one card (or the simultaneous SoG/NJ) before an opponent's Mayhem is dropped.
One benefit to this ruling is that FTM is slightly less devastating: you get to play your one best card before Mayhem ruins your game.
Another benefit to this ruling: as your first action, you could activate an artifact or play a fortress with a "protect your hand" ability - totally nerfing your opponent's Mayhem before he has a chance to play it.
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I would support that ruling. However, what's stopping you from plopping a bunch of cards down?
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I would support that ruling. However, what's stopping you from plopping a bunch of cards down?
Cards are played one at a time. A slight pause should happen between each anyway, so that all players see what is happening. If I ever see a player dropping more than one card at a time (besides the simultaneous SoG/NJ), I tell him to pick up his cards and play the game right. :)
Of course, this doesn't mean that I can't race through every dominant in my hand in rapid-fire succession, trying to play all of them before your Mayhem. That would be OK.
But characters, arts, sites, etc. can't be played that way. One at a time.
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Can we please get Bryon's suggestions as the actual rules? Please?
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I'm fine with those rules, but the doms part still seems like cards just being slammed onto the table as fast as possible. I think the rule should be 1 card max, SoG/NJ acting like 1 card, regardless of the type of card. If not, then people will just spam doms.
added: 1 card(any type) played like above, or any other "action" that starts the prep phase.
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No cards can be played during the draw phase or the upkeep phase, right? So, the dominants don't get to be played until the start of the preparation phase.
My understanding is that a Dominant can be played anytime during the turn, including the draw or upkeep phase.
You and/or your opponent can play a dominant(s) (lamb or grim reaper icon) at any time during the game. Neither you nor your opponent is required to wait for initiative or turn to play a dominant.
I personally don't like the idea of changing that or making some rule that other players get to play (non-Dominant) cards before I can play a Dominant.
If we want to take some of the teeth out of a FTM then we need to seriously consider an intro prep phase. Until then, anything we do to try to stop FTM (short of a dramatic errata or ban) isn't going to have much of an impact.
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You are not allowed to play dominants during a draw phase. That I know for certain.
I am pretty certain that the upkeep phase is ONLY for upkeep abilities. You can't do anything else (or introduce anything else) in that phase.
You also can't play a dominant while an instant special ability is being completed. (Menahem discards a card from hand before you can play Burial, for example)
So, dominants do have restrictions on when they can be played. That part of the rulebook has been outdated for years.
What has been fuzzy in the current rulings for Mayhem is that someone who is NOT the active player can just decide to slip a Mayhem into the beginning of a prep phase, when the active player hasn't even technically started that phase. I'd like the active player's actions to be what "declares" the start of the prep phase, just as it is for the battle phase.
As for an introductory prep phase, I'd love to see it. But that does not change the fact that other players should not be able to tell me when MY prep phase starts.
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How would an intro-prep phase work?
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No cards can be played during the draw phase or the upkeep phase, right? So, the dominants don't get to be played until the start of the preparation phase.
My understanding is that a Dominant can be played anytime during the turn, including the draw or upkeep phase.
That was mine too.
I agree with Gabe, the rule you suggested wouldn't do a whole lot to combat FTM and would imo establish a bad precedent for down the road. It also brings up weird things like if i put a character down in my territory could I play a dominant in response to that action? The best thing you could do is to ban the card, the second best would be to errata it to read "except during the first round". The card was meant to be an equalizer, hurting the drawing juggernaut's, and it does but more often then not it just gives you an overwelming advantage. Between two good players it pretty much decides the game right there. I also like the idea of intro prep but I am afraid it would be a rather large change, almost too large to be implemented mid tourney season.
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If this is true...
I am pretty certain that the upkeep phase is ONLY for upkeep abilities. You can't do anything else (or introduce anything else) in that phase.
...then it addresses this concern.
...other players should be able to tell me when MY prep phase starts.
The layout of a turn tells you when your prep phase starts. If you clearly don't have any upkeep effects (and I'm not allowed to play a Dominant during your upkeep for some reason) then you enter your prep phase. Right?
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I wonder, would you be allowed to go straight to an RA if you didn't do any upkeep actions, and before they played Mayhem? That to me seems odd.
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(and I'm not allowed to play a Dominant during your upkeep for some reason)
If I play Babel, I select all the evil characters that are entering battle, and put them into battle in the order I wish. No player can play Angel of the Lord on a King of Tyrus before I bring it into battle, in an effort to keep his ability from activating. It is the same way with Second Seal. It is the same way with "upkeep" abilities. At the start of the upkeep phase, all upkeep abilities of the active player trigger simultaneously. The active player chooses which order they will be applied. But no dominants can be played in the midst of those abilities, or while abilities triggered by those upkeep abilities are happening.
As your turn starts, the game tells you: "Draw 3. Activate all your upkeep abilities." Those are the first two phases of your turn. You can't do anything else in those phases.
If you clearly don't have any upkeep effects then you enter your prep phase. Right?
That is a very good point. All upkeep actions are visible to all players. So, when the last upkeep ability is completed, then the upkeep phase ends.
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I very much like Bryons idea my biggest problem with Mayhem is that I am never able to get enough characters out due to the fact that Mayhem only lets you draw 6 >.< and I lose the game because of this. If I could at the very least play one character or fort before my opponent nukes me with Mayhem that would help a lot.
Also assuming Bryon is correct could you in theory "skip" ALL of the phases and make it impossible for your opponent to play Mayhem on your turn?
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Each turn starts by giving this command to the active player: "Draw 3. Activate all your upkeep abilities."
You cannot skip draw and upkeep phases. But you can't play doms during them either.
Based on Gabe's argument, the end of the upkeep phase automatically begins your "open" prep phase.
Another option is to make the turn start command look like this: "Draw 3. Activate all your upkeep abilities. You may take a preparation phase action." This would allow your first action to signal the beginning of the preparation phase. That would help against FTM. It would also allow the player's actions to signal the beginning of each phase: draw, upkeep, prep, battle, discard. I think it would be cleanest and lead to less slapjack.
You CAN skip the battle phase.
You cannot skip the discard phase. You have to at least check your hand size, right? Dominants can be played in this phase, too.
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So basically if no visible counters/reductions are out on the table, you're free to mayhem after the d3 and then it's up to what cards hit the table. If it's all doms by your opponent then that's fine, but if it's anything else, they get 1 card if it was out first, but nothing other than doms if mayhem was out first?
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You are not allowed to play dominants during a draw phase. That I know for certain.
I am pretty certain that the upkeep phase is ONLY for upkeep abilities. You can't do anything else (or introduce anything else) in that phase.
Wait wait wait wait. This completely reverses a ruling I was given here:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25265.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25265.0)
What happened to make this change?
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So basically if no visible counters/reductions are out on the table, you're free to mayhem after the d3 and then it's up to what cards hit the table. If it's all doms by your opponent then that's fine, but if it's anything else, they get 1 card if it was out first, but nothing other than doms if mayhem was out first?
That is the slapjack option. My suggestion is that you should get ONE action to start the prep phase, at which point any number of opponents' dominants could be played in response.
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I wonder, would you be allowed to go straight to an RA if you didn't do any upkeep actions, and before they played Mayhem?
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Under the current rule, you wouldn't have time. They can see you don't have any counters/reductions to make before they end their turn, so after the d3, you're basically getting mayhem'd in your prep. Your d3 is forcing you into your prep if no upkeep stuff is out on the table, I guess that's how it works.
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Thats just what I was about to ask Lambo. I was told that you could play a Dom during draw phase, before upkeep phase where a Sin in the Camp trigger would activate and get rid of the card.