Author Topic: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)  (Read 1310 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

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Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« on: May 16, 2017, 12:44:25 AM »
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So I was recently informed by another player who claimed to have been backed up by an elder that you could run both the RoJ Michael and one of the older Michaels because they have different names. According to the REG it seems like you can have different versions of unique characters as long as they have either a different name or different brigade, so that would apply to Michael. This would also mean that you can run things like both versions of the new John (The green/white and the purple/clay) or both Peters or several Davids, and several other cards most likely. Basically I'm just checking because although it seems like this is true based on the REG it doesn't make intuitive sense that you can have two versions of the same Hero in a 50 card deck. Is there anything I'm missing or can I just go put two Michaels in my deck?

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 01:14:00 AM »
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Quote
Unique character cards with the same card title and the same art or with the same title and the same brigade are considered duplicates for deck building purposes

Quote
According to the REG it seems like you can have different versions of unique characters as long as they have either a different name or different brigade, so that would apply to Michael.

That's not quite right - you can't double up KoT/PotW (same name, same picture, different brigade).  I think it's different name OR (different art AND different brigade) - because you can't double up on Ira (same name, same brigade, different picture) or the purple Johns (same name, same brigade, 3 different pictures), either.

The characters you mentioned - along with Reg Dragon (WA/G and RoJ), oddly enough - do fit the criteria to be different cards.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 09:53:12 AM »
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Michael and Michael, the Archangel are considered to have the same name so you cannot have both in a deck of less than 100 cards.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 11:54:05 AM »
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+1

Quote from: REG>Deck Building Rules>T1
Unique characters with special abilities that have the same name and brigade are limited to a maximum of 1 each per 50 cards in a deck.

Quote from: REG>Duplicate Cards
Some character cards have different card titles, but are the same unique character. A player may have only one of these in your territory, in battle, in a side battle, face down, or set-aside at a time. When a card or special ability references a character by name, it can be applied to any version of the named character.

These are unique characters with different card titles:
...
Michael (AW) or Michael (Ki) or Michael, the Archangel (RJ) or Michael (Wa)
...
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 02:03:32 PM »
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Quote from: REG>Deck Building Rules>T1
Unique characters with special abilities that have the same name and brigade are limited to a maximum of 1 each per 50 cards in a deck.

Quote from: REG>Duplicate Cards
Unique character cards with the same card title and the same art or with the same title and the same brigade are considered duplicates for deck building purposes; a player may have only control one of these at any time.
...
Some character cards have different card titles, but are the same unique character.

If that's the case, these entries need to use the same wording - or at least not contradictory wording.  "Same name" as in the deck building rules section could work, but would still cause questions, so not sure what the answer is.

And the bullet in T1 Deck Building Rules doesn't prevent dual KoT/PotW.

For Noah's Sons, Job's Three Friends, and Moses' Parents, are they not allowed in a deck with any of the members, or not in a deck with all of the members?  Or they can be in a deck with all of the members, just not in play with any of them?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 02:22:01 PM »
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Quote from: REG>Deck Building Rules>T1
Unique characters with special abilities that have the same name and brigade are limited to a maximum of 1 each per 50 cards in a deck.

Quote from: REG>Duplicate Cards
Unique character cards with the same card title and the same art or with the same title and the same brigade are considered duplicates for deck building purposes; a player may have only control one of these at any time.
...
Some character cards have different card titles, but are the same unique character.

If that's the case, these entries need to use the same wording - or at least not contradictory wording.  "Same name" as in the deck building rules section could work, but would still cause questions, so not sure what the answer is.

And the bullet in T1 Deck Building Rules doesn't prevent dual KoT/PotW.

For Noah's Sons, Job's Three Friends, and Moses' Parents, are they not allowed in a deck with any of the members, or not in a deck with all of the members?  Or they can be in a deck with all of the members, just not in play with any of them?

Good catch Aggie! We'll adjust here and get back to you.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 08:34:20 AM »
+1
Quote from: REG>Deck Building Rules>T1
Unique characters with special abilities that have the same name and brigade are limited to a maximum of 1 each per 50 cards in a deck.

Quote from: REG>Duplicate Cards
Unique character cards with the same card title and the same art or with the same title and the same brigade are considered duplicates for deck building purposes; a player may have only control one of these at any time.
...
Some character cards have different card titles, but are the same unique character.

If that's the case, these entries need to use the same wording - or at least not contradictory wording.  "Same name" as in the deck building rules section could work, but would still cause questions, so not sure what the answer is.

As always, thanks for helping us fine tune the language we use in the REG, Mr. Aggie!

We reviewed the use of "name" vs. the use of "card title" and found that they mean different things.

"Name" is used to refer to the name of a character in the Bible. For example, David is the name of a shepherd boy who became King. 

"Card title" is used to refer to the words printed on the top right portion of a card.

"Name" encompasses all instances of that character regardless of variances in how the character is referenced in the card title.

From this we can derive that King David (P) and David the Shepherd (CW) have different card titles but have the same name. Since they also share a brigade "purple" they cannot be used in the same T1 deck if it's under 100 cards.

And the bullet in T1 Deck Building Rules doesn't prevent dual KoT/PotW.

That's a pretty important omission! The phrase that addresses this is found in the 4th edition rule book.

Quote
Unique characters with special abilities that have the same name and same card art are limited to a maximum of 1 each per 50 cards in a deck.

We failed to copy that to the REG when we added (and updated) the deck building rules last summer. It has been added to our correction for v4.1.1 which we finished last night and will release ASAP.

For Noah's Sons, Job's Three Friends, and Moses' Parents, are they not allowed in a deck with any of the members, or not in a deck with all of the members?  Or they can be in a deck with all of the members, just not in play with any of them?

Noah's Sons is gold brigade. The card shares a "name" with Ham, Shem and Japheth because it's the same character(s) named in the Bible. The art used on the cards is different. Since only 1 of the 3 criteria is met they can all be included in the same deck. *Noah's Sons still can't be in play at the same time as any of the 3 individual sons card.

Job's Three Friends is brown brigade. The RoJ version of each of the 3 friends is also brown. Job's Three Friends shares a "name" because it references the same 3 characters in the Bible. Even though the art is different, 2 of the 3 criteria have been met so you cannot include Job's Three Friends in a deck with any of the 3 RoJ cards that represent them as an individual.

Jochebed (Wo) is white brigade. She shares that brigade with Moses' Parents (or Amram and Jochebed from the National's CoW release). They also both reference the same character "name" in the Bible. Even though the art is different, 2 of the 3 criteria have been met so you cannot include Jochebed (Wo) and the CoW version in the same deck.

Bonus time! Whore of Babylon (L, UL), Babylon the Great (Wa) and The Harlot (RJ) are all the same named character in the Bible. They also all share the crimson brigade. But since The Harlot (RJ) is a Site at face value you may still include it in a deck that contains either Whore of Babylon (L, UL) or Babylon the Great (Wa).
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 09:01:39 AM »
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So going back to the original question, it is confirmed that a player cannot have Michael (Ki) and Michael, the Archangel (RJ) in the same T1 deck under 100 cards, but you can have John the Revelator and John the Apocalyptist RJ) in a 50 card deck.

Gabe, since you are about to release REG 4.1.1 you may want to consider putting in an entry about DAC/DAE as well as mentioned in a post from yesterday.

Thanks for the work you and the other elders do to keep up with all of this stuff.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 12:02:49 PM by Watchman492 »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 11:16:46 AM »
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So going back to the original question, it is confirmed that a player cannot have Michael (Ki) and Michael, the Archangel (RJ) in the same T1 deck under 100 cards, but you can have John the Revelator and John the Apocalyptist RJ) in a 50 card deck.

Correct.
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Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 02:19:33 AM »
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John the Apocalyptist and John the Revelator can use TGT since it's the same "named" Biblical character, right?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Deck Building Question (Two Michaels?)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 09:12:04 AM »
+1
Correct; it's the same person so either would work.
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