Author Topic: Death & Hades  (Read 1156 times)

Offline Nameless

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Death & Hades
« on: March 11, 2014, 09:23:07 PM »
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How does Death & Hades work?  Is it an ongoing ability? Is it whenever the EC enters battle the opponent has to discard down to 7?  If not those, what is it?

D&H
Reduce opponent's hand to 7 cards until this character is discarded.

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 09:31:09 PM »
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I think it means that while he remains in play then your opponent has to discard down to seven at the end of each turn rather than 8, or at least that's always how I've played it (and when I say "played it" I mean played it years ago so I might be remembering wrong). Although, I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he was removed from the game or captured... As long as he's not negated or interrupted beforehand I feel like his effect would still remain.

Offline Nameless

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 09:33:40 PM »
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I think it means that while he remains in play then your opponent has to discard down to seven at the end of each turn rather than 8, or at least that's always how I've played it (and when I say "played it" I mean played it years ago so I might be remembering wrong). Although, I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he was removed from the game or captured... As long as he's not negated or interrupted beforehand I feel like his effect would still remain.
That would seem about right.  I totally forgot what he did but was looking for words of discouragement for a deck, saw him, and thought that he would fit well in a pale green hand control deck.(This deck also uses Nunc Dimittis)

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 09:35:53 PM »
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Is this deck a Type 2 deck?

Offline Nameless

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 09:37:00 PM »
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No. T2 is for people with to much time.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 09:58:20 PM »
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Disagree about having too much time, but that's beside the point ;)  I think he was asking because Words to Words to Words to End-the-Battle is insane in T2.  In T1, Words is a nuisance, but won't absolutely destroy you with only one copy.

On the card in question, this will mirror the Simon the Zealot rulings in most, but not all, aspects.

The ability persists and is CBN starting in the phase following the battle phase in which it activated, if it is not negated then (because at that point it has completed in a previous phase).  If the character re-enters battle, the ability 'reactivates' and therefore it can be negated again in that battle phase and not allowed to continue.

The ongoing state of the ability continues until the condition is met; in this case, that is the discarding of the character.  Interestingly, this is different from some other "while in play" abilities in that it is not while in play; if this character is set-aside, removed from game, shuffled into deck, returned to hand, placed face-down, etc., the technical reading of the ability says that the ability persists (and you would not have a chance to ever stop it in most of those cases).

I know of no standard rule that would affect this card that would require it to remain in play, does anyone else have any input on that?

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 11:18:22 PM »
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Well, I was mostly asking because I have a Type 2 deck that needs testing but yes, even Words² + End Battle is pretty sick. Now if only there was a good way to do it more than twice... :P

That ruling makes sense to me. I'd say that as long as Death & Hades isn't discarded (or any copy of him if you're using multiples in, let's say, a Type 2 deck ::)) then opponent would have to discard down to 7 every turn. But of course if we're playing it how it's worded then it would also make sense for your opponent to just have to discard down to 7 when he enters battle. Although, if we pay attention SUPER closely, it really says that YOU have to reduce your opponent's hand to 7 so clearly you just have to take out cards at random and discard them, put them in play, underdeck them, put them in your own hand, etc.  ;D









P.S. the last part is a joke, although it would be pretty sweet.

Offline Josh

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Re: Death & Hades
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 12:42:58 PM »
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The big problem is the word "reduce".  It sounds like an instant ability, but all instant abilities that "reduce" hands use other verbiage (discard, underdeck, shuffle, take, opponent must discard, opponent must underdeck, etc.).  The card is obviously referring to the action one takes during their Discard phase, where they must reduce to 8 cards before they end their turn.  There is no instant ability "reduce", so I don't think it means discarding cards at random from opponent's hand.

And we all know that the "until this character is discarded" probably was intended to mean "until this character is removed from play", but it doesn't say that.  "Until this character is discarded" is honestly an easy-to-understand and easy-to-rule-on ability; it just happens to be so rare (is there another card with this exact ability?) that we want to play it as it was intended.

TL;DR:  Seems straightforward.  Opponent reduces to 7 at end of turns, and as long as D&H is never discarded by any means, it continues.
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