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Author Topic: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN  (Read 2947 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

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Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« on: January 07, 2010, 12:57:04 AM »
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Ok, totally hypothetical situation, but this had me wondering.

Opponent makes a RA with any hero, i block with any orange EC that gives me initative. I play Deafening Spirit, and treat it as an EC. The opponent plays AotL on my first Evil character, and then somehow makes the battle FBTN.

Does DS revert to an enhancement and fizzle?

Deafening Spirit - Negate and discard the last good Enhancement played this battle. You may treat this card as an Evil Character until the end of battle.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 01:03:17 AM »
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On the one hand, I'd say that yes, it fizzles. But I could also see objecting on the grounds that once he starts being treated as an EC, even if you Negate the SA, you're negating the SA on an EC and he doesn't switch back to an Enhancement.
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 01:04:56 AM »
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Hence why I asked.  :P

Another related question: If I play Deafening Spirit and treat him as an EC, can the opponent negate it with a negate enhancement, such as Flaming Sword? Or is it no longer "the last EE played" as its now an EC?
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 01:07:13 AM »
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That one I'm 80ish% sure of. Negate Enhancement cards can't target DS because he is now an EC.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 08:59:04 AM »
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Actually I am of the opinion that "Negate Last Enhancement" abilities WOULD negate DS, as DS was the last enhancement played, regardless of what it is now. "Negate AN Enhancement" abilities would not negate DS however.

As to the original question, DS has a convert ability which can be negated. If it is negated, DS reverts to his previous state of being, an enhancement. Since no orange EC's are in battle to play it, it is discarded. It's just as if you attack, and I block with two EC's. You convert one with a negatable convert, and on the other one I play Foolish Advice. The converted EC stops being a hero and reverts to being an EC, and rejoins the battle.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 10:02:36 AM »
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I believe that it would stay an evil character regardless of negating because it becomes a character.  Its like saying i negate the fact that you are an evil character.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 10:29:04 AM »
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Quote from: Lurch on January 07, 2010, 10:02:36 AM
Its like saying i negate the fact that you are an evil character.

No, it's negating the conversion to an evil character. Conversion is an ability just like anything else, subject to negation. Fundamentally, there's no difference between converting a card from a Hero to an Evil Character and converting a card from an EE to an EC. It's still a conversion, and still a negatable ability.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 10:49:13 AM »
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Quote from: Professoralstad on January 07, 2010, 08:59:04 AM
Actually I am of the opinion that "Negate Last Enhancement" abilities WOULD negate DS, as DS was the last enhancement played, regardless of what it is now. "Negate AN Enhancement" abilities would not negate DS however.

Just so.  Especially given that "negate last enhancement" can even negate enhancements that are no longer in play (discarded) or in the game (removed from the game).
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 11:20:52 AM »
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There is one important point I just realized. It never truely converts. It says "treat as." Does that still make it a conversion ability?
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 11:29:05 AM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 07, 2010, 01:07:13 AM
Negate Enhancement cards can't target DS because he is now an EC.
Pol is correct.  This has been ruled on before.

Of course if the FBN was applying to character AND enhancement SA's, then it might negate.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 12:23:27 PM »
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It has been discussed before, in this thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17917.0 . In that, sk brings up the following REG quote:

Quote from: REG>Instant Abilities>Interrupt or Negate Last>Special Conditions
Placing a card in the discard pile removes it from play, but does not remove the ability to negate it by (1) interrupting the battle or (2) interrupting the last enhancement played in battle. However, a "negate last enhancement" negates the last enhancement regardless of its current state (in play, discard pile, converted to a character, etc.).

So as I said, in this and the other thread, a "negate last enhancement" will negate it, a "negate an/one/any/all enhancement(s)" won't. Since an FBTN card negates character and enhancement abilities, then it would negate DS at any point however, so it would not be treated as an EC any more.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 01:29:06 PM »
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Hey,

Negating Deafening Spirit would revert it to being treated as an enhancement.

Deafening Spirit can be negated by "negate the last Evil Enhancement played in battle" ability.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on January 07, 2010, 11:20:52 AM
There is one important point I just realized. It never truely converts. It says "treat as." Does that still make it a conversion ability?

It is classified as a convert ability in the current REG, so right now it is a convert ability.  Seeing as it doesn't use the word convert, it is an ability that we will have to look very closely at before we decide what to do with it in the new REG.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 02:29:08 PM »
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That's bunk. How can a card that targets Enhancements for negation target a Character? If it's in the Discard Pile, it's still an Enhancement so that's not a valid argument for why it should work on characters.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 02:43:43 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 07, 2010, 02:29:08 PM
That's bunk. How can a card that targets Enhancements for negation target a Character? If it's in the Discard Pile, it's still an Enhancement so that's not a valid argument for why it should work on characters.

Regardless of what it is now, it WAS the last enhancement card played. The fact that it is no longer an enhancement doesn't change that.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »
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It should. The negating card clearly targets Enhancements. DS is no longer an Enhancement. It should not be targeted by a Negate Last Enhancement.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 02:56:44 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 07, 2010, 02:46:55 PM
It should. The negating card clearly targets Enhancements. DS is no longer an Enhancement. It should not be targeted by a Negate Last Enhancement.

According to the REG, the card targets the last enhancement, with the current state of the enhancement being irrelevant. So you play DS. I play a negate last enhancement. What was the last enhancement played? DS. What was its effect? It negated the enhancement before it and converted itself to an EC. Is that effect negatable? Yes. So would my negate last enhancement negate it? Seemingly so.

Will that entry in the REG be changed? Possibly. Tim said they will have to look at that ability very closely for the new REG. But for now, the rule is pretty clear. 
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 03:03:31 PM »
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I know what the ruling is now. That's why I'm using "should" and the like. It is my hope that when they reexamine it, they will put an end to cards that target Enhancements targeting Characters.
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Deafening Spirit vs FBTN
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 05:12:24 PM »
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My whole problem with this is that conversion is an instant ability, whereas DS has this ongoing "treat as" ability.  I think it either needs to be an instant ability with a trigger, or you create some new ongoing conversion category.

If it is an instant ability with a trigger, then FBTN only negates the trigger so DS would remain an EC if it survives after battle.

If it is some new ongoing ability, then FBTN negates the whole ability and DS reverts back to an enhancement.

As Sir Nobody states, the PTB need to take a look at it.
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