Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 30702 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #150 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:27:09 PM »

So... if what happens if you had used an evil Tclass enhancement last? would Book copy it, and become an evil card?

The Schaef · « **Reply #151 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:35:26 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 14, 2010, 03:27:09 PM

So... if what happens if you had used an evil Tclass enhancement last? would Book copy it, and become an evil card?

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This enhancement duplicates (becomes an exact copy of) the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #152 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:41:07 PM »

Whoops, I missed that in the large amount of text in the one post.

Bryon · « **Reply #153 on:** February 15, 2010, 11:28:10 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 14, 2010, 07:02:42 AM

When you play a card, it has been played. I'm pretty sure it would just retain that quality until it is returned to face value.

THAT is what I was waiting for. Thank you for finally answering my request (even if it took Mark asking to finally get you to cooperate).

I find it ironic that, according to your definition, a card can be played again as long as it has been reset. Notice where cards reset: hand, deck, or discard pile. Looks familiar.

My idea:
As a card comes from hand, deck or discard pile and is put in a location other than those, it is considered played.

Your idea:
As a card enters play by a game rule (and/or activates its special ability) for the first time, it is considered played.

Is this an accurate statement of your definition? If not, please repair it.

I greatly prefer my definition, since it doesn't require keeping track of which artifacts have been activated or not. If I have two copies of Holy of Holies in my artifact pile, and one of them has been activated ("played" by your definition) and the other has not, then if I activate a Holy of Holies, how do I know if I am playing a card or not?

You answered my questions for me, but on a few of them, you gave an answer I would not have given:
1. An enhancement placed by the Augur type hero DOES count as being played. (Did you misread his question? It seems like you got those reversed.)
3. Stillness can't return an enhancement played in a previous phase. Stillness likewise does not return to hand all the good weapons on the table.
5. Ongoing abilities only last until the end of the phase (or turn in the case of Abel's Sacrifice). Abel's Sacrifice expired. It is the same as if, during battle, you played Abel's Sacrifice, then Eleazar's Sword on a warrior class hero. Eleazar's Sword is CBI for that battle. It does not gain CNI for the rest of the game.
7. You are right that Shadow does not follow the "use" and "as if played from hand" like all the rest of them do. That is part of the reason that "playing" enhancements has always seemed "somehow different" than the playing of every other type of card. To be written correctly under my interpretation, it could be, "You may play an enhancement with Snare in the title (or take one into hand from Storehouse and play it instead)." This better describes what happens anyway.

Stephen, do enhancements placed on Musicians Chambers count as being played? They are put in play by a game rule, right? Or do you consider the identifier on Musicians' Chamber a special ability?

Players might think it odd that you consider an enhancement placed on Musician's Chamber played, but an enhancement placed on Storehouse is not. This is not inconsistent, based on your definition. It just feels odd.

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #154 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:04:32 AM »

For the record, I like Bryon's definition better, for the reasons that it is intuitive, and that it is easier to keep track of.

Kevin Shride

The Schaef · « **Reply #155 on:** February 16, 2010, 02:48:22 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 15, 2010, 11:28:10 PM

I find it ironic that, according to your definition, a card can be played again as long as it has been reset. Notice where cards reset: hand, deck, or discard pile. Looks familiar.

That's amazing, Bryon! Why, it is almost as if the two definitions were 98% the same! If only I had realized that sooner, I might have said so!

Thank you also for confirming that this whole time you were just baiting me for an specific point you already had in your head. Despite your claim, this does not answer your request because I have not altered my definition one iota just by acknowledging rules that are already in place, that we already apply to similar terms, and which you provided yourself in this same thread.

Here is my definition again, "repaired" at your request:
to place a card "in play" by game rule and/or to activate its special ability

Use it, or don't, but stop holding it to its own set of conditions apart from everything else. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

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I greatly prefer my definition, since it doesn't require keeping track of which artifacts have been activated or not.

I don't really think mine does either, but whatever. An Artifact is either active, or it's not. To stretch it much beyond this is to suppose a hypothetical ability that is so convoluted it would be rather unreasonable in a card.

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1. An enhancement placed by the Augur type hero DOES count as being played. (Did you misread his question? It seems like you got those reversed.)

Trembling Demon says "this battle". Did you play the Enhancement "this battle" or in the previous phase when you originally placed it?

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3. Stillness can't return an enhancement played in a previous phase.

Why? This restriction is not shown on the card, and makes even less sense applied to a card in the Field of Battle at the time.

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5. Ongoing abilities only last until the end of the phase (or turn in the case of Abel's Sacrifice).

Satan's Seat only lasts until the end of the phase you play it?

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7. That is part of the reason that "playing" enhancements has always seemed "somehow different" than the playing of every other type of card.

It does not seem different to those of us who have consistently viewed "playing" a card as actively using it in some way.

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Players might think it odd that you consider an enhancement placed on Musician's Chamber played, but an enhancement placed on Storehouse is not. This is not inconsistent, based on your definition. It just feels odd.

Cards are placed in Storehouse by a special ability. This is not difficult to understand. Claims to an "odd feeling" smack of irony when cards are considered "played" in so many other unorthodox circumstances as you define it.

To say my definition is more intuitive may be an unscientific observation, but I should note that my wording only echoes the ones given by nearly everyone else who responded to this thread, including Sir Nobody (albeit he included cards put in play by special ability). I also think that more players than not will instinctively gravitate towards mirroring my answers if presented with Scott's scenarios, because they are accustomed to the convention of "play" being an active verb implying a use of the card, and not just a fancy, interchangeable version of "place".

Again, use my definition, or don't, but just be mindful of the forthcoming headaches from players who will be asked to go against that instinct. Either way it goes, it will be an improvement over the proposed definition "put a card from hand into play" from five days ago.

Bryon · « **Reply #156 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:41:18 AM »

I was not baiting you. I did not understand you definition and said so.

You went back to your old definition. Now, by that definition, if I put a hero into battle to activate its ability, it is played again. My definition works EVERY time its condition is met. Your definition works only the FIRST time the condition is met, but that that clause is not stated as you wrote it. You might THINK that clause is unimportant, but questions by me and Mark should have made it clear to you that "the first time" needs to appear somewhere in your definition, and it does not need to appear in mine.

"Opponent can't play heroes, fortresses, or artifacts this round." Don't even pretend this is a convoluted ability. I've asked a few players here if they would allow a player to put an artifact in a pile if this were written on a card. They all said no.

1. The Augur-type hero put the enhancement in play that battle. That is how I read the question anyway. If he placed it on a previous turn, then why is this even a question (since the demon specifies THIS TURN)? He did say that the Augur-type hero was the one in battle, right?
3. So then, according to you, Stillness would return all good enhancements (weapons, territory class, set aside, and healing) you played that prep phase? And why stop at phase? Every good weapon on the table was played at some previous turn, why not return them, too? In fact, just about every enhancement in the discard pile was played at some point. Why not return them, too? This has nothing to do with the "at what moment is a card played" debate, but is an interesting side discussion. This should be split off if we wish to continue this.
5. Satan's Seat only lasts to the end of the phase in which it was discarded (unless specified "this turn" which lasts until the end of the turn). Same as any card with an ongoing ability, including Abel's Sacrifice. I figured you'd know that, so I was surprised you answered that question for me incorrectly.

Am I correct in deciphering from your non-answer that enhancements placed in Musician's Chamber are played, but the ones in Storehouse are not?

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #157 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:58:32 AM »

Gosh Zac....see what you started!!

STAMP · « **Reply #158 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:21:13 AM »

@Schaef and @Bryon: Thank you for interpreting my first example correctly even though I worded it completely wrong. It is now fixed.

Quote from: Bryon on February 15, 2010, 11:28:10 PM

5. Ongoing abilities only last until the end of the phase (or turn in the case of Abel's Sacrifice). Abel's Sacrifice expired. It is the same as if, during battle, you played Abel's Sacrifice, then Eleazar's Sword on a warrior class hero. Eleazar's Sword is CBI for that battle. It does not gain CNI for the rest of the game.

@Bryon: ~~You may not have noticed the special ability on Abel's Sacrifice in Example 5 specifies "turn"~~ [edit] Guess I should have included the quote the first time.

But if we use your argument, then Abel's Sacrifice is a ridiculous card in the very first place. Stating "this turn" means nothing, especially in my example where it is played in the prep phase. There are several phases in a turn so I would surmise that Abel's Sac reaches into each phase of the current turn:

"Abel's Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn may not be interrupted."

The Schaef · « **Reply #159 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:29:38 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 10:41:18 AM

I was not baiting you.

You specifically said you were waiting for me to talk about the cards resetting.

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Now, by that definition, if I put a hero into battle to activate its ability, it is played again.

Stop holding this definition to a different standard than other rules AND YOUR OWN WORDS.

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Don't even pretend this is a convoluted ability. I've asked a few players here if they would allow a player to put an artifact in a pile if this were written on a card. They all said no.

Now be scientific about it, take a control group, and ask them if that ability would allow them to activate Artifacts that are face-down in the Artifact pile.

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If he placed it on a previous turn, then why is this even a question (since the demon specifies THIS TURN)? He did say that the Augur-type hero was the one in battle, right?

I may have read that backwards, but I think the idea applies both ways. Agur would count as playing an Enhancement even though it's contrary to the intuitive use of Trembling Demon, and the Hero holding the Enhancement would NOT count as playing an Enhancement even though THAT is contrary to the intuitive use of Trembling Demon.

It really makes no difference which is which, the final result is the same either way: a difference in how Trembling Demon would play based on the two definitions.

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3. So then, according to you, Stillness would return all good enhancements (weapons, territory class, set aside, and healing) you played that prep phase? And why stop at phase?

No. According to you. This is your definition of "play", not mine. And why stop?

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5. Satan's Seat only lasts to the end of the phase in which it was discarded (unless specified "this turn" which lasts until the end of the turn). Same as any card with an ongoing ability, including Abel's Sacrifice.

Yes, and the card that was placed was "played" that turn. Therefore, it cannot be interrupted.

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Am I correct in deciphering from your non-answer that enhancements placed in Musician's Chamber are played, but the ones in Storehouse are not?

I don't understand how explaining to you precisely what I think and why constitutes a non-answer to you. But on the other hand, I've explained a half-dozen times the precise reason I do not need to alter my definition, and you have not even acknowledged that, let alone responded to it in the affirmative or negative, so I don't know what else I am supposed to say. You're obviously set in your course and the rest of this is just academic. I just think that if I'm saying the same thing that three other people said on page 1, and your definition has changed multiple times over the course of the discussion, then the question over which is intuitive and which is not plays out differently than you are supposing with your example.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #160 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:36:58 AM »

I agree with Schaef.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #161 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:52:25 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 16, 2010, 11:36:58 AM

I agree with Schaef.

Quoted for future reference...

STAMP · « **Reply #162 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:19:30 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 16, 2010, 11:52:25 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 16, 2010, 11:36:58 AM
I agree with Schaef.

Quoted for future reference...

Cats chasing dogs again.

Bryon · « **Reply #163 on:** February 16, 2010, 02:46:42 PM »

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Example 5: If I play Abel's Sacrifice on Table of Burnt Offering, then rescue with Agur and place a negateable enhancement on one of my hero's, doesn't that enhancement become CBI the next turn I use that hero?

Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn. In your example, you are talking about allowing the enhancement placed on your hero to STILL have that status from a turn or more ago. That doesn't work.

It is exactly the same as a green WC hero who uses Abel's Sacrifice followed by a green weapon that the hero keeps after battle. The Weapon only keeps "Cannot be interrupted" status during the turn it shares with Abel's Sacrifice. The weapon does not keep CBI status for subsequent turns. If you played Abel's Sacrifice on one turn, it grants the enhancement that came into play by Agur's place ability CBI status for the rest of that turn. Once that turn is over, the placed enhancement no longer retains that CBI status (just as the weapon in my example does not retain CBI status).

So far, it looks like we have 3 options for determining at what point a card is considered "played":

1) As a card goes from hand, deck, or discard pile to a location other than those.

2) As a card enters play by game rule (and/or activates its special ability) for the first time (or the first time since the card is reset).

3) As a card enters play. Also, as an enhancement activates its special ability.

The third option is the best I can state Tim's definition. According to Tim, a card can be "played" multiple times without reset. So, a weapon is played as it enters play, and then is played again when it enters battle each time. An artifact is considered "played" as you activate it after it was face down, no matter how many times it is deactivated and then reactivated. I don't know his position on characters returning from set aside. If he considers them played again, then the definition I suggested is probably sufficient. If he does not consider them played again, then we'll have to change it to something like:

3) As a card enters play (unless it is returning from set aside and was set aside from play). Also, as an enhancement activates its special ability.

The first definition allows a card to be played again only if it meets the definition (coming from hand, deck, or discard pile).
The second definition is similar, since it requires a card to be reset before being played again.
Tim's allows certain types of cards to be considered "played" at multiple times without reset.

Are there any other suggestions?

The Schaef · « **Reply #164 on:** February 16, 2010, 02:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 02:46:42 PM

Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn.

That's not what the card says.

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2) As a card enters play by game rule and/or activates its special ability.

Fixed. KNOCK IT OFF.

Bryon · « **Reply #165 on:** February 16, 2010, 03:02:30 PM »

That is not fixing it. That is making it vague, unless you are changing your position. Tim's position allows for a card to be considered "played" multiple times without reset. Are you saying the same as Tim now, or do you stand by your position that it is considered "played" only the first time one of those actions happens to a card?

The Schaef · « **Reply #166 on:** February 16, 2010, 03:15:41 PM »

I already explained to you why it is not vague. I haven't even seen the first clue from you that you even read it.

Why do you waste time asking me to explain my position only to discard the response?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #167 on:** February 16, 2010, 04:28:30 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 02:46:42 PM

1) As a card goes from hand, deck, or discard pile to a location other than those.

Just to clarify, your definition means that if I play a card that discards the top card of your draw pile, then that card is considered "played" (because it went from the deck to the discard pile), even though it never entered play, never activated it's special ability, or really anything else for that matter.

I don't think most people would consider discarding the top card of your deck as "playing" a card. Do you consider it that way?

TimMierz · « **Reply #168 on:** February 16, 2010, 04:40:17 PM »

Mark, I understood that as something going from hand, deck, or discard pile to something that's not the hand, deck, or discard pile - otherwise every card you draw (going from deck to hand) is instantly played! So a card going from hand to Land of Redemption (GoYS) or from discard pile to the field of battle (False Priests) or deck to set-aside area (Samaritan Water Jar?), for instance, gets played.

The Schaef · « **Reply #169 on:** February 16, 2010, 04:40:23 PM »

Actually, I think his definition is that X = deck/discard/hand, and Y = everything else, and "play" is everything that transfers from X to Y, and not from any X to X or Y to Y locations.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #170 on:** February 16, 2010, 04:48:52 PM »

OK, so discarding a card from your deck is NOT playing it by anyone's definition. Good

STAMP · « **Reply #171 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:00:15 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 02:46:42 PM

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Example 5: If I play Abel's Sacrifice on Table of Burnt Offering, then rescue with Agur and place a negateable enhancement on one of my hero's, doesn't that enhancement become CBI the next turn I use that hero?
Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn. In your example, you are talking about allowing the enhancement placed on your hero to STILL have that status from a turn or more ago. That doesn't work.

It is exactly the same as a green WC hero who uses Abel's Sacrifice followed by a green weapon that the hero keeps after battle. The Weapon only keeps "Cannot be interrupted" status during the turn it shares with Abel's Sacrifice. The weapon does not keep CBI status for subsequent turns. If you played Abel's Sacrifice on one turn, it grants the enhancement that came into play by Agur's place ability CBI status for the rest of that turn. Once that turn is over, the placed enhancement no longer retains that CBI status (just as the weapon in my example does not retain CBI status).

Ahh, sorry Bryon. In my haste to respond to one part of your discussion of Example 5, I forgot what the original question was. There are actually two parts now to this example based on some of your responses.

Let's look at the first and foremost part which is the original question. I'll use your "paper-piercing" example from a couple of years ago as an analogy. Based on the argument you have presented in this thread regarding when cards are "played", in Example 5 Abel's Sacrifice gives CBN status to all enhancements "played" after it during the turn. In other words, it makes ALL the bullets "paper-piercing". When it does this none of the other bullets have been fired yet, i.e. activated. That's an important point to make. It's like set-asides that give added abilities. When a card comes back from set-aside it has an added ability that has CBN status. That ability doesn't activate during that phase but it still has CBN status whenever it eventually gets activated. The same thing can be said of Abel's Sacrifice. It activates and all enhancements that are "played" until the end of the discard phase of the player's turn are CBN. The special abilities don't have to activate during the phase when Abel's Sacrifice is activated. But they do get CBN status. They become paper-piercing bullets that can be fired at any time, as long as those bullets don't get reset as regular bullets (i.e. goes to hand, deck or discard). By your definition of "played", the enhancement that gets placed by Agur gains CBN status. And something I just thought about, all enhancements the player places in Storehouse during the discard phase would also get CBN status. Of course 98% of them will probably get reset (player returns them to hand). But Shadow could play a CBN Snare by this interpretation.

The second part is something I inferred from one of your responses somewhat related to the original example. Were you implying at any time that if I play Abel's Sacrifice in my prep phase (a la Altar of BO), that the enhancements I play in the battle phase are NOT CBN? Because that's what I thought you were saying.

D-man · « **Reply #172 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:24:49 PM »

Somebody just shoot me a PM when this is all over so I know how it ended.

Sometimes it is remarkably hard to tell, even after everything is said and done.

STAMP · « **Reply #173 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:39:38 PM »

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Somebody just shoot me ~~a PM~~ when this is all over...

Fixed.

Bryon · « **Reply #174 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:50:33 PM »

Scott, does a green weapon played immediately after Abel's Sacrifice gain CBI for the rest of the game?

According to current rules, it does not. Ongoing abilities like Abel's Sacrifice (which is discarded after it is used) stop giving their effects once the phase (or turn in this case) is over. It is not a permanent gain, like a set aside.

Are there any other suggestions for defining the moment when a card is played?

Should we just make the rule for "playing" enhancements separate from and completely different from the definition of "playing" for all other cards?

Should a card have to go "in play" in order to be considered "played."?

What do you think of the third option? Do we allow a card to be "played" multiple times without ever returning to hand, deck, or discard pile?

News:

Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 30702 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Tracer Burnout

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef