Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 30221 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #125 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:33:19 PM »

OK, so at this point we have the following 2 definitions (using their own words), and perceived oddities (using my words).

Quote from: Bryon on February 13, 2010, 11:00:25 AM

1) to move a card from hand, deck, or discard pile to a location other than those

Oddities: Putting an artifact face-down or putting enhancements in Storehouse would count as "playing" them.

Quote from: The Schaef on February 13, 2010, 06:44:01 AM

2). to place a card "in play" by game rule and/or to activate its special ability

Oddities: A card could be played multiple times (ie. artifacts getting activated, deactivated, and then activated again, or cards getting set aside and returning to play).

I repeat my question. Is there any reason why a face-down artifact needs to be considered "played"? And I'll add another. Is there any reason why an artifact being activated for a second time needs to be considered "played again"? I really think we could get somewhere faster in this conversation if we looked at a specific difference between the definitions and see which one works better with current rulings.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #126 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:41:24 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 13, 2010, 10:39:02 AM

And we have our first picture in the list. Of course that does mean that you need to keep that picture there forever STAMP, so that future generations will all get to enjoy it as well

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #127 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:52:49 PM »

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I will bring it up again... Another situation this could be game changing is with Proud Pharisee. If he is brought into battle by say... Herod Agrippa II, who has a weapon on him... has an enhancement been played this turn?

Quote

If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.

Also said earlier, I have had it ruled that Proud Pharisee would NOT be allowed to play an enhancement if a weapon is in battle before he enters.

Bryon · « **Reply #128 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:24:16 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 13, 2010, 01:58:50 PM

You cannot activate something already activated, you cannot discard something already discarded, but you can play something already played? Is that what I am now forced to clarify?

I asked you to clarify your definition.

If a hero entering battle from territory and activating its special ability counts as being played, then your definition is fine. If not, then your definition is not clear and needs to be fixed.

If a hero returning from set aside counts as bring played, then your definition is fine. If not, then your definition is not clear and needs to be fixed.

If an artifact being activated a second time in a game counts as being played, then your definition is fine. If not, then your definition is not clear and needs to be fixed.

If your rule is as simple as you profess, then this is a simple request. Please write your rule so that it doesn't have the fuzzy "first time" feature as a hidden, unstated footnote. Please make that part clear so we can have a good look at a side-by-side comparison of our ideas of "what constitutes being played."

Bryon · « **Reply #129 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:25:30 PM »

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Oddities: Putting an artifact face-down

There are fortresses that say "Plays to set aside area." So, playing a card to an out-of-play location is not new.

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putting enhancements in Storehouse would count as "playing" them.

This is the biggest hangup for people. MasterKChief pointed this out on the second page:

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yeah, dd stopping enhancements from going into sh just doesnt stick well. 'play' can mean entirely different things for different types of cards. 'play' for enhancements has pretty much always exclusively meant by activating its ability.

I think the reason for that hangup is that players know what "play an enhancement" means as a special ability, and are not thinking about it from the standpoint of "I didn't use a "play" ability, but the card was still played" angle.

Look at the exchange lost soul + the hand discard lost soul (If you put this lost soul in a site, each opponent must discard a card from hand.) If I have my wanderer/exchanger in a site, and then exchange it with your hand discard soul, then the lost soul was put into the site. I didn't put it there by a "put/place" ability. I didn't put it there by a "put/place" game rule (put a lost soul in a site durign prep phase). Yet, I PUT it there as a byproduct of the exchange.

So, it is possible to play a card as a byproduct of another ability.

Doesn't River Flowing from the Temple's band ability also result in the hero being played?

STAMP · « **Reply #130 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:52:06 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 13, 2010, 04:52:49 PM

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I will bring it up again... Another situation this could be game changing is with Proud Pharisee. If he is brought into battle by say... Herod Agrippa II, who has a weapon on him... has an enhancement been played this turn?

Quote
If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.

Also said earlier, I have had it ruled that Proud Pharisee would NOT be allowed to play an enhancement if a weapon is in battle before he enters.

Along those lines, will placing an enhancement on Table of Showbread stay the trigger on Proud Pharisee if he enters battle during the same turn?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #131 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:56:11 PM »

That would only happen during a side battle, which can't be caused by a hero without playing an enhancement in the first place can it?

STAMP · « **Reply #132 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:58:34 PM »

I was thinking more of a converted PP, since that is popular.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #133 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:01:40 PM »

Ah, that totally slipped my mind. True.

Regardless of when he is played, this discussion can change how he is played.

Bryon · « **Reply #134 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:03:47 PM »

Does placing a hero from hand onto House in Bethany mean the hero is considered played? I'd say so.

Then placing an enhancement from hand onto Musician's Chambers means the enhancement is considered played.

And placing an enhancement from hand onto Table of Showbread means the enhancement is considered played.

UNLESS it is decided that, for the sake of long-time players such as MasterKChief and others who are understandably hung-up on the idea of an enhancement being considered "played" even though it is not being allowed to take effect (those who have difficulty separating the special ability "play an enhancement" from the side effect "the enhancement entered play"), we decide to treat enhancements DIFFERENTLY than every other type of card.

I would not be totally opposed to that idea, but it DOES mean the dreaded word "inconsistency."

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #135 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:04:55 PM »

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #136 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:20:14 PM »

So what about Proud Pharisee and Weapons... that still has yet to be answered. Was the weapon "played" by entering battle or not?

Gabe · « **Reply #137 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:25:44 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 13, 2010, 08:03:47 PM

UNLESS it is decided that, for the sake of long-time players such as MasterKChief and others who are understandably hung-up on the idea of an enhancement being considered "played" even though it is not being allowed to take effect (those who have difficulty separating the special ability from the side effect), we decide to treat enhancements DIFFERENTLY than every other type of card.

But if we go by that definition, then all those 2/2 enhancements from limited will never be "played"...

...since they have no SA to activate.

FWIW, I agree with the logic behind Bryon's definition. Whatever we decide I'm glad we will finally have a standard definition for what "played" means.

Bryon · « **Reply #138 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:32:00 PM »

"If a card comes from hand, deck or discard pile and is put in a location other than those, it is considered played."

So, a weapon is played when it comes from hand, deck, or discard pile. Moving from territory to battle does not count as "playing" the card.

According to Schaef's definition as written, it is played when it first enters play, and played again every time it enters battle. But that is not what he intended by his definition. I'm hoping we will see his definition expanded and clarified to include what he meant by "first time."

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #139 on:** February 13, 2010, 09:58:23 PM »

Quote

we decide to treat enhancements DIFFERENTLY than every other type of card.

Because it is a different type of card?

The Schaef · « **Reply #140 on:** February 13, 2010, 11:13:11 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 13, 2010, 07:24:16 PM

Please write your rule so that it doesn't have the fuzzy "first time" feature as a hidden, unstated footnote.

This is now the second time I am asking you to drop this specious argument. I didn't consider it particularly sporting that I had to ask a first time. It's not fuzzy if YOU established it as a given.

Can you discard a card that is already discarded?
Can you activate a card that is already activated?

The rules say these are impossible, but this qualifier DOES NOT EXIST IN THE DEFINITIONS FOR EITHER TERM, in EITHER version of the REG.

I take great exception to accusations that I am not doing my due diligence when I am following the same conventions being applied to both existing and new definitions, and which YOU YOURSELF PROVIDED IN THIS EXACT THREAD. I am happy to be cooperative but disinclined to entertain the same questions over and over after providing an answer, or to stipulate to your terms only to be smacked down for living up to them. I don't think anybody benefits when controversies are just invented and goalposts are moved.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #141 on:** February 13, 2010, 11:59:40 PM »

In other card games i follow, cards can be played before they come into play. (and some never even make it into play, even though theyve been played)

I think you can play a face down card, and it can be considered in play (yet untargetable, unless specifically a.k.a. DragonRaid, Assyrian Spoilers, Blinding Demon), conditions can be met and the cards special ability can be activated.

Quote

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I will bring it up again... Another situation this could be game changing is with Proud Pharisee. If he is brought into battle by say... Herod Agrippa II, who has a weapon on him... has an enhancement been played this turn?
Quote
If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.
Also said earlier, I have had it ruled that Proud Pharisee would NOT be allowed to play an enhancement if a weapon is in battle before he enters.

-Lambo

I think it depends on when the enhancement was played. if you placed an enhancment on Agrippa this turn, attacked with a hero and created a side battle then you played an enhancement (actually two) this turn. if you converted Proud Pharisee and placed an enhancment on him this turn then attacked, guess what? you played an enhancment this turn. If an opponent attacked you and you blocked with aggrippa holding a weapon banding to proud i would not consider this as playing an enhancment. An enhancement was activated but not played.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #142 on:** February 14, 2010, 12:43:39 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 13, 2010, 11:13:11 PM

This is now the second time I am asking you to drop this specious argument.

I don't think Bryon is trying to be specious to you Schaef. I am also a bit confused here. I thought you were saying that cards could be played multiple times (ie. an art being activate, deactivated, and then activated again) if it entered play multiple times. Are you not saying that?

The Schaef · « **Reply #143 on:** February 14, 2010, 01:03:59 AM »

I never said that, and when he tried to steer it into that the first time, I very roundly denied it and pointed him back to his own words. I didn't have time to correct your misgiving cause I was out this evening. But even after having this specific conversation with him, he continues (repeatedly) to make the same claim. I invite you to find a more appropriate word.

Immediately before your previous post, I said these things:
"...I never even used the word "again", and since I have accepted from the very beginning of this discussion that your position only suggests that a card is played the first time it meets the condition, and not every time..."
"You were the one who said cards are played once and activated multiple times thereafter."

And on multiple occasions I questioned the logic that suggests that we all accept from the rules that you can't discard a card that's already discarded, and you can't activate a card that's already activated, but for unknown reasons I (alone) should be required to clarify that you can't play a card that has already been played.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #144 on:** February 14, 2010, 01:23:52 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 14, 2010, 01:03:59 AM

you can't play a card that has already been played.

Because a card can enter and exit the "field of play", and since your definition of "play" means to enter that field, it was a natural misunderstanding to think that you might view a card as being "played" multiple times.

So if I'm now understanding you, the first time a card enters the field of play or activates, then it is "played". If it is an artifact that is turned face-down and then back face-up, then that would not be "playing" it again, but rather "activating" it again. If a character returns from being set-aside, then that would not be "playing" it again, but rather ---

I'm still a bit fuzzy on that last one. What would you call that?

The Schaef · « **Reply #145 on:** February 14, 2010, 07:02:42 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 14, 2010, 01:23:52 AM

Because a card can enter and exit the "field of play", and since your definition of "play" means to enter that field...

That is not my definition of that term, and many cards that are played never enter the Field of Play.

Quote

...it was a natural misunderstanding to think that you might view a card as being "played" multiple times.

It is not a natural misunderstanding to think something that directly contradicts a common point of agreement, established by that person, and then persisted even after the misunderstanding was resolved.

When you play a card, it has been played. I'm pretty sure it would just retain that quality until it is returned to face value.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #146 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:35:58 AM »

there is a difference between played and coming into play. both terms include the same word (play) and therefore can cause some confusion.

MtG has recently changed thier terms on thier (zones) and now come into play is worded as enters the battlefield.

Are face down artifacts still considered in play? I tryed to find an answer on this but alas to no avail.

The Schaef · « **Reply #147 on:** February 14, 2010, 12:42:14 PM »

"in play" simply refers to being in the Field of Play, including the Field of Battle and all players' territories.

The distinction between "in play" as a location, and the notion of "playing a card" was never in question.

If there weren't so many things that needed to continue to hold their value in the Set-Aside Area, or cards that can be "stored" in certain locations without actually being used (and yes, I realize this is the main point of contention right now), then the two would be synonymous, to the point where we could just say playing a card is taking a card out of play and putting it into play.

To answer your question, no face-down cards are in play. They still have a location value (e.g. territory, Land of Bondage, Set-Aside Area) but are considered out of play.

STAMP · « **Reply #148 on:** February 14, 2010, 02:49:19 PM »

My head hurts. To use a different tack, how many scenarios are impacted by this currently? I know there are probably a lot more, but here's some I can think of off the top of my head:

Example 1: Trembling Demon blocks an Agur-type hero that has used its place ability. Are lost souls protected or not?

Agur
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 8 / 9 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Proverbs 30:1
Trembling Demon
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If no good Enhancements are played this battle, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. Opponent may discard a good Enhancement from hand to negate this. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: James 2:19

Example 2: A converted Proud Pharisee begins a battle after player has placed an enhancement on Table of Showbread in the prep phase.

Proud Pharisee
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gray • Ability: 2 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement. • Attributes: Generic, Pharisee • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Human, Pharisee • Verse: Matthew 23:5-7

Example 3: Could I return an enhancement to my hand from Table of Showbread using Stillness?

Stillness
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero may withdraw from battle unharmed. All enhancement cards played may be returned to the player's hand except this one. • Identifiers: OT, Involves Music • Verse: Psalms 46:10

Example 4: Can enhancements played and discarded during prep phase be returned to play using Lay Down Your Life?

Lay Down Your Life
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If holder's Hero is about to be discarded, discard Hero. Holder may place another Hero of the same brigade from his territory into battle. All previous enhancements stay in play. • Errata: If a Hero is discarded this battle, discard Hero to allow holder to place another Hero of the same brigade from his territory into battle. All previous enhancements stay in play. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: John 15:13

Example 5: If I play Abel's Sacrifice on Table of Burnt Offering, then rescue with Agur and place a negateable enhancement on one of my hero's, doesn't that enhancement become CBI the next turn I use that hero?

Abel’s Sacrifice
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Abel's Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn may not be interrupted. • Play As: Abel’s Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn cannot be interrupted or prevented. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 4:4
Altar of Burnt Offering
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: You may play up to two offering Enhancements during your preparation phase. They activate immediately, and then are discarded. • Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item • Verse: Exodus 27:1

Example 6: If I play Book of Jashar as the first enhancement on my hero in battle, does it copy the enhancement I place on Table of Showbread in the prep phase?

Book of Jashar
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: This enhancement duplicates (becomes an exact copy of) the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn. • Play As: This enhancement copies the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn. When this card leaves battle, it returns to face value. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Joshua 10:13

Example 7: If I have an enhancement in Storehouse with "Snare" in the title, may I RE-play it with Shadow?

Shadow
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Grey • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may search draw pile for "The Darkness" or "Demonic Stronghold" and put it in play. If you have an enhancement in hand or Storehouse with "Snare" in the title, you may play it. • Identifiers: NT Male Demon • Verse: Ephesians 6:12

The Schaef · « **Reply #149 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:11:50 PM »

Example 1: As I see "play", the Enhancement used by Agur would count against Trembling Demon. As Bryon sees it, Trembling Demon would still work.

Example 2: As I see "play", Proud Pharisee could play an Enhancement. As Bryon see it, he could not.

Example 3: As I see "play", the card in Table of Showbread would stay because it was placed but never used. As Bryon sees it, it would return to hand.

I don't think example 4 is relevant because something cannot "remain" in play if it is not in play to begin with.

Example 5: As I see "play", the card could be negated. As Bryon sees it, it could not.

Example 6: As I see "play", the card on Table of Showbread could not be copied for the same reason as Example 3. As Bryon sees it, it could. Interestingly, this card - as written - could copy a TC Enhancement regardless.

Example 7: As I see "play", the Enhancement from Storehouse could be played as expected. This raises an interesting question, however, as Bryon has insisted cards are only ever "played" once under his definition, and Shadow clearly contradicts that premise. This same question is raised by other cards that store Enhancements for use, but I think most of them use the term "use" rather than "play" so a loophole exists for explaining those.

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Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 30221 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef