Author Topic: curses as arts (Read 6712 times)

theselfevident · « **Reply #25 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM »

Quote

So this would mean curses/covs are only neutral in deck/hand/discard, and never otherwise?

I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

Praeceps · « **Reply #26 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM

I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

theselfevident · « **Reply #27 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:26:35 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM
I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

Drrek · « **Reply #28 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:28:45 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:26:35 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM
I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

We know they can be target as even/good in deck/hand because they can be targeted as curses, enhancements or artifacts.

Gabe · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:30:00 PM »

While I agree with what's being said here, I only resurrected the elders discussion last night and want to give everyone a chance to participate before I comment further or we announce the official decision. The ruling I was quoted giving earlier is the way it has always been. I was unclear if other elders expected that to change when we started treating covenants/curses more like DAEs. If I was unclear on that I can completely understand why there's confusion among board members.

theselfevident · « **Reply #30 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:35:42 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on June 02, 2013, 02:28:45 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:26:35 PM
Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM
I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

We know they can be target as even/good in deck/hand because they can be targeted as curses, enhancements or artifacts.

I am confused now, are you saying they are or are not neutral?

Drrek · « **Reply #31 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:41:28 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:35:42 PM

Quote from: Drrek on June 02, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:26:35 PM
Quote from: Praeceps on June 02, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: theselfevident on June 02, 2013, 02:17:33 PM
I don't think they are neutral in deck, they just aren't an artifact or an enhancement. However, they are good or evil.

No they can be targeted as both an artifact and an enhancement while in deck.

I stand corrected, thank you Praeceps. I still think curses/covenants can be targeted as evil/good in deck/hand.

We know they can be target as even/good in deck/hand because they can be targeted as curses, enhancements or artifacts.

I am confused now, are you saying they are or are not neutral?

What I am saying is they can be targeted as any one of the three types of cards that they are. They must be neutral in hand, deck and discard since they can be targeted as artifacts which are neutral

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #32 on:** June 02, 2013, 04:12:10 PM »

As Gabe said, this could change as a result of the discussion on the other side, buy my current understanding is that:

Card type Location Alignment Targetable as:
Covenants Deck, Discard, & Hand Good Art, Cov, Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Artifact Pile Good Art, Cov, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Storehouse & Battle Good Cov or Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Curses Deck, Discard, & Hand Evil Art, Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
Artifact Pile Evil Art, Cov, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
Storehouse & Battle Evil Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
DAE Deck, Discard,
Storehouse & Hand Good & Evil Enh, "good card", "evil card", or "X brigade card"
In play due to GC Good Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
In play due to EC Evil Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"

browarod · « **Reply #33 on:** June 02, 2013, 04:27:46 PM »

"More like DAEs" and "treated the same as DAEs" are two different things and it would have been nice if the original change was more specific. As it stands, if Covs/Curses were treated the same as DAEs (the original wording) they wouldn't be good/evil or have brigades if played as artifacts. That's what seems to make the most sense to me (and is the most consistent overall between card types). If Prof Underwood's excellent graph is how it's going to be treated, it'll be nice to have it down on paper, but that's not the same as it originally was (though maybe I'm just too much of a stickler on wording

).

Drrek · « **Reply #34 on:** June 02, 2013, 04:41:39 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 02, 2013, 04:12:10 PM

As Gabe said, this could change as a result of the discussion on the other side, buy my current understanding is that:

Card type Location Alignment Targetable as:
Covenants Deck, Discard, & Hand Good Art, Cov, Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Artifact Pile Good Art, Cov, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Storehouse & Battle Good Cov or Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
Curses Deck, Discard, & Hand Evil Art, Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
Artifact Pile Evil Art, Cov, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
Storehouse & Battle Evil Cov, Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"
DAE Deck, Discard,
Storehouse & Hand Good & Evil Enh, "good card", "evil card", or "X brigade card"
In play due to GC Good Enh, "good card", or "X brigade card"
In play due to EC Evil Enh, "evil card", or "X brigade card"

Just to make the chart a little better (so hopefully it doesn't confuse anyone, especially newer players), for DAE cards, it should have "X brigade card," and "Y brigade card," as its targetables, since it has two brigades, and it loses one of its brigades when played.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #35 on:** June 02, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on June 02, 2013, 04:41:39 PM

Just to make the chart a little better (so hopefully it doesn't confuse anyone, especially newer players), for DAE cards, it should have "X brigade card," and "Y brigade card," as its targetables, since it has two brigades, and it loses one of its brigades when played.

Yeah, I thought about putting something like that, but then I wasn't even sure enough myself whether DAE's retain both brigades all the time, so I decided to just leave it off until someone else clarified it. Besides, I wanted each line of the chart to fit on a single line, and I didn't know how many spaces were available on a standard size monitor

Josh · « **Reply #36 on:** June 03, 2013, 10:39:04 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 02, 2013, 04:27:46 PM

"More like DAEs" and "treated the same as DAEs" are two different things and it would have been nice if the original change was more specific. As it stands, if Covs/Curses were treated the same as DAEs (the original wording) they wouldn't be good/evil or have brigades if played as artifacts. That's what seems to make the most sense to me (and is the most consistent overall between card types).

QFT. Curses and Covenants being treated as DAEs is what led me to believe that once a Cov/Curse is played as either an EE or Art, it no longer has any of the attributes of the type it wasn't used as (except that it is targetable as a covenant or curse). So it would seem that Covenant with Death as an artifact could negate Simeon (Di) or Seraph, since it would be a neutral card.

DAEs lose one of their alignments completely once they are used. And if there was ever a card that targeted "dual-alignment enhancements", I think it could target a DAE played for either alignment. I think Cov/Curses should follow the same logic - the only identifier they should share as an EE or an Art is that they are a "Cov/Curse".

Gabe · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2013, 11:11:37 PM »

How would Pithom interact with a gold curse if we played it the way you describe?

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #38 on:** June 03, 2013, 11:57:44 PM »

I had always played that the brigade on a curse are in play and count toward The Lord Fights For You, Two Bears, etc when counting or looking for brigades. However, I was told recently that the brigade is not "in play" when used as a curse. I don't know what thread it is from.

Can someone set the record straight for me?

Kirk

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #39 on:** June 04, 2013, 01:11:37 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 03, 2013, 10:39:04 PM

So it would seem that Covenant with Death as an artifact could negate Simeon (Di) or Seraph, since it would be a neutral card.

I just finished saying that Covenants/Curses were NOT neutral cards.

Quote from: Captain Kirk on June 03, 2013, 11:57:44 PM

I had always played that the brigade on a curse are in play and count toward The Lord Fights For You, Two Bears, etc when counting or looking for brigades. However, I was told recently that the brigade is not "in play" when used as a curse.

My understanding is the same as Gabe's, that Pithom is still able to see "gold" curses, therefore brigades are still in play.

Korunks · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2013, 10:15:18 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 04, 2013, 01:11:37 AM

Quote from: jmhartz on June 03, 2013, 10:39:04 PM
So it would seem that Covenant with Death as an artifact could negate Simeon (Di) or Seraph, since it would be a neutral card.
I just finished saying that Covenants/Curses were NOT neutral cards.

Quote from: Captain Kirk on June 03, 2013, 11:57:44 PM
I had always played that the brigade on a curse are in play and count toward The Lord Fights For You, Two Bears, etc when counting or looking for brigades. However, I was told recently that the brigade is not "in play" when used as a curse.
My understanding is the same as Gabe's, that Pithom is still able to see "gold" curses, therefore brigades are still in play.

Based on your answers, the rule that Curses/Covenants should be treated the same as DAE's should be altered or removed, because the way you elders are ruling it in this thread treats them like they are not the same. Either they completely lose their other attributes or they don't.

browarod · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2013, 12:35:12 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on June 04, 2013, 10:15:18 AM

Based on your answers, the rule that Curses/Covenants should be treated the same as DAE's should be altered or removed, because the way you elders are ruling it in this thread treats them like they are not the same. Either they completely lose their other attributes or they don't.

This is pretty much the whole point of my previous post, sorry for the confusion. I was pointing out that Curses and Covenants are NOT currently treated the same as DAEs (for various reasons) and that a lot of things would break if we suddenly did treat them like that.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #42 on:** June 04, 2013, 12:58:02 PM »

I think the idea of comparing Curses/Covenants to DAEs was primarily referring to their status when out of play. We were trying to explain why you can search for them in deck/discard pile/hand as either enhancements OR artifacts in addition to curses/covenants. Really that was the only change in rulings that occurred at the time the comparison first became popular.

Adding some more clarity to that comparison is probably a good idea

Gabe · « **Reply #43 on:** June 04, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on June 04, 2013, 10:15:18 AM

Based on your answers, the rule that Curses/Covenants should be treated the same as DAE's should be altered or removed, because the way you elders are ruling it in this thread treats them like they are not the same. Either they completely lose their other attributes or they don't.

These are the rules for Covenants and Curses as found in the REG. Can you please show me where it says they are treated the same as DAEs?

Quote from: REG

Covenant
A Covenant is both an Enhancement and an Artifact, and can be targeted as either (in hand, deck, or discard pile) until it is played, held, activated, or placed in Artifact pile as one or the other. A Covenant that is played or held as an Enhancement can no longer be targeted as an Artifact. A Covenant that is activated or placed in the Artifact pile can no longer be targeted as an Enhancement. It can still be targeted as a Covenant.

Quote from: REG

Curse
A Curse is both an Enhancement and an Artifact, and can be targeted as either (in hand, deck, or discard pile) until it is played, held, activated, or placed in Artifact pile as one or the other. A Curse that is played or held as an Enhancement can no longer be targeted as an Artifact. A Curse that is activated or placed in the Artifact pile can no longer be targeted as an Enhancement. It can still be targeted as a Curse.

browarod · « **Reply #44 on:** June 04, 2013, 04:48:02 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 04, 2013, 03:18:43 PM

These are the rules for Covenants and Curses as found in the REG. Can you please show me where it says they are treated the same as DAEs?

I believe it was something posted in a thread, not something in the rules. I can't seem to find it right now, though.

Gabe · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2013, 10:55:43 PM »

The elders have unanimously agreed that the following statement is true. I'm adding it to the next REG update.

Quote

Covenants and Curses retain their alignment (good/evil) and brigade when active as an Artifact.

browarod · « **Reply #46 on:** June 06, 2013, 08:21:52 AM »

Thanks Gabe.

Korunks · « **Reply #47 on:** June 06, 2013, 08:40:50 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 05, 2013, 10:55:43 PM

The elders have unanimously agreed that the following statement is true. I'm adding it to the next REG update.

Quote
Covenants and Curses retain their alignment (good/evil) and brigade when active as an Artifact.

Excellent, that clears the whole situation up nicely.

News:

Author Topic: curses as arts (Read 6712 times)

browarod

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