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Author Topic: Crowds soul question.  (Read 1714 times)

Offline Red

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Crowds soul question.
« on: June 04, 2016, 10:12:54 AM »
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Does Crowds Soul protect my deck from my opponent's Nazareth?
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2016, 11:06:15 AM »
+1
A protect ability can only protect against future targeting.  Based on the wording of Crowds, it would have to activate each turn, since it refers to "this turn."

"While you have drawn 4 or fewer cards this turn, protect your hand and deck from opponents' cards."

Since it is reactivating, a Nazareth that was already down, active, and not negated would already be in place.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2016, 11:24:06 AM »
+1
My understanding is that Crowds protection remains active until you draw over 4 cards. It only needs to reactivate at the start of a new turn if the protection stops because you met that condition on a prior turn.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2016, 11:27:50 AM »
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While I can understand that logic as well, I would more agree with that if it said "while you have not drawn 4 or more on a turn," where "this" indicates to me a reactivation.  Interesting discussion, like to hear other input.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2016, 12:08:12 PM »
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By the game rule ongoing abilities only reactivate if they have a) be deactivated or b) been negated.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2016, 12:42:08 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on June 04, 2016, 12:08:12 PM
By the game rule ongoing abilities only reactivate if they have a) be deactivated or b) been negated.

Or if they reach the end of their duration.  The word "this turn" is used to indicate that default timing, so it checks each turn independently whether the protection is active.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2016, 01:43:29 PM »
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By your logic it only checks at the start of the turn as a one time check. There's no way to have drawn over 4 cards at that point. So Crowds is always protecting? Can we get a show of hands for who plays it that way?
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Offline kram1138

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2016, 02:17:27 PM »
+2
As far as I know, lost souls don't really have any activation point, so they would just be continuously checking for the condition.

FW is a one time check, because I believe it uses the work "if". Crowds uses the word "while", which I would take to mean it is always ongoing as long as the condition is met. If there isn't a point where it isn't met, it shouldn't reactivate.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on June 04, 2016, 01:43:29 PM
By your logic it only checks at the start of the turn as a one time check.

No, I didn't say that and my logic doesn't go there, because the "while" means that it continually checks.  I'm just showing that the "this turn" indicates that it does reactivate each turn and is continuously checking for that turn.

Quote from: Gabe on June 04, 2016, 01:43:29 PM
So Crowds is always protecting? Can we get a show of hands for who plays it that way?

Straw man...
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Offline Josh

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2016, 03:46:09 PM »
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Quote from: Redoubter on June 04, 2016, 11:06:15 AM
A protect ability can only protect against future targeting.  Based on the wording of Crowds, it would have to activate each turn, since it refers to "this turn."

"While you have drawn 4 or fewer cards this turn, protect your hand and deck from opponents' cards."

Since it is reactivating, a Nazareth that was already down, active, and not negated would already be in place.

This topic is a few weeks old, but it didn't really get resolved.  Just wanted to bump it to see if any other Elders wanted to weigh in, and give my own opinion.

If the Crowds LS is in play before Naz and you never draw 2+ cards on that turn, Naz can't target your deck in the turn it is played.  Your deck doesn't "exist" for Naz.  When that turn ends, and the new one begins, even if Crowds "reactivates" and checks cards drawn again, at no point was your deck ever "visible" to Naz.  Your deck was never a part of the subset of "decks" that Naz was protecting.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2016, 04:36:04 PM »
+1
I talked with Justin and he agrees with my ruling. I haven't been able to talk to Dayne apart from these posts.

There is nothing in this game the reactivates at the start of every turn. It's simply not how the rules of this game function. I'm sure other games do that but this one does not.

I'm 100% confident in my ruling based on the current rules and the discussions surrounding the creation of this card. Dayne wasn't an elder yet at the time and isn't privy to the later part. But based on the way Redemption works I can't understand how he can rule otherwise.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 05:03:07 PM by Gabe »
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kariusvega

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2016, 05:05:44 PM »
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so what exactly is the ruling? i'm trying to figure out where there is even a disagreement or misunderstanding
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2016, 05:24:32 PM »
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This topic is on the agenda for an Elder Skype call scheduled for tomorrow night. We will have an official ruling to announce on Friday I would guess.

If for some reason this comes up in a game tonight (who is using Nazzy these days?  :o), consider Gabe's ruling official.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 09:43:50 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on June 22, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
Dayne wasn't an elder yet at the time and isn't privy to the later part.

Gabe, I've been around plenty to know that all ongoing effects don't activate each turn in Redemption, and I haven't argued that position at all, in any form whatsoever, in this thread.  This card is different by the wording, so don't make this an argument it isn't.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Crowds soul question.
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 03:09:54 AM »
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Quote from: Gabe on June 04, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
My understanding is that Crowds protection remains active until you draw over 4 cards. It only needs to reactivate at the start of a new turn if the protection stops because you met that condition on a prior turn.

The Elders have discussed this, and this is the ruling that was decided upon. Thank you for your patience as we ironed that out.  :)
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