Author Topic: Crowd lost soul -- EDIT Ruling Announced (Read 2139 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** May 30, 2017, 10:34:59 AM »

When does it take effect? If I draw it on my first turn does it protect my hand and deck if i have the most lost soul and let my opponent go first is my hand and deck protected?

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:41:37 AM »

any turn you have not drawn more than 4 cards, your hand is protected. even first turn

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:42:45 AM »

I understand that but technically I drew eight cards. But I guess that's a preparation phase and not a turn.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:46:59 AM »

I don't know for sure if it counts during the "pre-game" soul activation period (Such as an opponent drawing an open hand soul in their opening hand and you have a crowd soul in your opening hand) but the initial first 8 definitely don't count as cards drawn during your first turn.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:49:36 AM »

Correct--the opening draw does not count.

However, keep in mind that LS activate in order based on the decision of the player who has the most drawn.

So if you draw Crowds and I draw 2 Revealers, I can choose my Revealers to activate first and Crowds would not be protecting your deck yet.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:59:38 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 30, 2017, 10:49:36 AM

However, keep in mind that LS activate in order based on the decision of the player who has the most drawn.

The decision that you're talking about is that based on lost souls or is that based on if you choose to go first or let your opponent go first?

Watchman · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2017, 11:03:07 AM »

What if there was a tie? I guess whoever wins the tie at that point decides which souls activate first?

Regarding Crowds not counting during the first turn, I think it would have been better if the wording on it made it clear that the first turn doesn't count as on the surface it seems it would not work since the holder drew eight cards on his turn. I didn't realize until now that this was a rule.

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2017, 11:17:51 AM »

There's two steps to the beginning the game (after everyone has drawn 8 and put their LS down).

First you see who has the most LS drawn -- that player decides whose LS trigger first. It then proceeds in turn order.

Second, after all LS abilities are done you see who now has the most LS in their territory. That player then decides who takes the first turn.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2017, 11:26:02 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 30, 2017, 11:03:07 AM

What if there was a tie? I guess whoever wins the tie at that point decides which souls activate first?

Regarding Crowds not counting during the first turn, I think it would have been better if the wording on it made it clear that the first turn doesn't count as on the surface it seems it would not work since the holder drew eight cards on his turn. I didn't realize until now that this was a rule.

Ties for activating LS is the same as choosing the first turn. If multiple players have the same number you use your preferred method to break the tie.

There is no "turn" for the drawing of the 8 cards (because all players do this simultaneously). The turn begins when abilities start to activate.

Watchman · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2017, 12:14:32 PM »

When you say the turn begins when abilities start to activate, do you mean LS abilities?

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** May 30, 2017, 12:25:16 PM »

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2017, 01:56:18 PM »

Guardian, I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm also a college graduate so I'm not all that dumb, but to clarify does a turn begin when the souls' abilities activate or when the player who has the most souls chooses to go first (or the one who wanted the other player to go first)? It appears you wrote something contradictory in your last two posts about when the turn begins.

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2017, 02:11:14 PM »

No worries...it's also quite possible I've been misunderstanding how this should work as well.

A couple other playtesters and I are discussing this and we believe there are two valid interpretations--

1. There is no "turn" when Lost Soul abilities are completing from the opening draw of 8 (therefore Crowds doesn't activate at all since there is no "turn")

2. The opening draw of 8 begins the game and since players take turns completing their LS abilities before determining who takes the initial turn, that is a shared "turn" (which means a Crowds LS would activate when it gets to its owner's turn to activate his LS abilities).

From a strict reading of the REG, option 1 appears more consistent. However, since it appears both interpretations have been used by different groups/players we are researching if a previous ruling had been established. Obviously we are wary of changing an established ruling just as the major tournaments are starting to happen. Typically we only want to do that if something is found to be broken in terms of gameplay. Fortunately this is not a game-breaking scenario, but obviously it does impact strategy. (For example, I have used the Escape LS many times to pull out Crowds LS so that it would activate before my opponent could use his Awake LS or Open Hand LS).

We ask for your patience as we attempt to do our due diligence with this ruling.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2017, 04:19:25 PM »

If there is no ruling, it seems to me that the second is what a lot of people use (at least in Dunlap tournaments, where people like JD, Jay, Rex, Daniel, Chris etc come a decent amount). Of course, that doesn't mean it is correct, but it does seem to be a general consensus between several playgroups here.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2017, 05:13:36 PM »

Oh no what kind of can of worms did I open. 😀

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** May 30, 2017, 05:41:09 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 30, 2017, 02:11:14 PM

No worries...it's also quite possible I've been misunderstanding how this should work as well.

A couple other playtesters and I are discussing this and we believe there are two valid interpretations--

1. There is no "turn" when Lost Soul abilities are completing from the opening draw of 8 (therefore Crowds doesn't activate at all since there is no "turn")

2. The opening draw of 8 begins the game and since players take turns completing their LS abilities before determining who takes the initial turn, that is a shared "turn" (which means a Crowds LS would activate when it gets to its owner's turn to activate his LS abilities).

From a strict reading of the REG, option 1 appears more consistent. However, since it appears both interpretations have been used by different groups/players we are researching if a previous ruling had been established. Obviously we are wary of changing an established ruling just as the major tournaments are starting to happen. Typically we only want to do that if something is found to be broken in terms of gameplay. Fortunately this is not a game-breaking scenario, but obviously it does impact strategy. (For example, I have used the Escape LS many times to pull out Crowds LS so that it would activate before my opponent could use his Awake LS or Open Hand LS).

We ask for your patience as we attempt to do our due diligence with this ruling.

I would argue that even if we go with the strict interpretation and say there is no "turn", then Crowds would still be active. The way I understand it, Crowds is always active UNLESS the condition is met to deactivate it. Basically:

Xonathan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 30, 2017, 05:43:14 PM »

Awesome meme bro

Watchman · « **Reply #17 on:** May 30, 2017, 06:38:59 PM »

This would be the same argument if Foreign Wives is used to block right away.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #18 on:** May 30, 2017, 06:41:57 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 30, 2017, 06:38:59 PM

This would be the same argument if Foreign Wives is used to block right away.

Foreign Wives has never been a block first turn because the the initial 8 cards. We aren't discussing if the 8 cards are part of the first turn or not (They definitely are not), just whether or not the period of the the game where opening hands are drawn and souls activate counts as a pseudo "turn" or not.

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** May 31, 2017, 01:40:42 PM »

After doing some digging, Gabe was able to find documentation that verifies what Kevin so humorously pointed out--Crowds LS is always active unless the condition is met, which includes the time when LS abilities are activating at the start of the game before the first turn is determined.

That being said, we will work on codifying what exactly the time between the opening draw and the first player beginning their first turn should be considered. It is something we will work on for REG 5.0

Shout out to Kevinthedude for pointing us in the right direction!

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #20 on:** May 31, 2017, 02:41:35 PM »

you could just call it something like the soul phase or something. that is all that can happen in that phase, after all.

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Author Topic: Crowd lost soul -- EDIT *Ruling Announced* (Read 2139 times)

Author Topic: Crowd lost soul -- EDIT Ruling Announced (Read 2139 times)