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Hold on. I'm a little confused. I was always told that CoN can be used at anytime, after an enhancement has been used. But, what I'm getting from this is that CoN can't be used When a person has special initiative in battle, when you would play a normal Negate, like flaming sword, is this correct?

Awesome. Thanks Mr.Underwood.

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2012, 10:05:17 PM

If he says that is the ruling and has no dissent ... then it is the ruling.

This is not true. One elder rulings that change what has been the status quo are not official rulings. There needs to be elder support. This case, in particular, seems to have multiple different status quos, depending on where you live. We need a concensus elder ruling on this issue so that we can all have piece of mind, rather than continue the back-and-forth that seems to be getting a bit personal.

There is no 'written' rule that contradicts what Prof U was suggesting to be ruled in this case, which Pol was suggesting, and I'd challenge anyone to find that ruling.  Prof U agreed with me, and you, and Pol, all in different ways, so I'm really not sure why you want to keep arguing 

This is not about arguing, but about uniformity. Based on Wyatt's response (and I am assuming others would fall into his category), some REP's (possibly elders) are ruling that CoN can be used even against cards like DoU. This is a problem that cannot be addressed by four people that post regularly, only one of which is an elder. It is the people who are not on here much that concern me.

Agreed completely. I am trying to argue for simplicity, and as we see based on a newer player's response, our current argument is not very simple at all...

Hey,

The rules for Special Initiative are very recent and are agreed to be correct.

Can someone share a link to where this was established for me?  I remember discussing it with John Earley in person a couple times, but I didn't participate in the discussion about it on the boards.

My initial response is that Covenant with Noah can be used during special initiative and cannot be used to negate Death of Unrighteous and the like.  But I'd like to review whatever we agreed on about special initiative before sharing more of my thoughts on the matter.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

My understanding is that ALL negates can be used in SI ( regardless of what they are) and CoN is just a really old Negate, and my question is if this one doesn't work like a proper negate, then when do any of the others?

I would argue that all negates (or prehistoric Interrupt/Prevents) should be treated the same. Either all of them can Negate their target regardless of where it is or none of them do.

Why make the game anymore confusing?

My understanding is that ALL negates can be used in SI ( regardless of what they are) and CoN is just a really old Negate, and my question is if this one doesn't work like a proper negate, then when do any of the others?

I would argue that all negates (or prehistoric Interrupt/Prevents) should be treated the same. Either all of them can Negate their target regardless of where it is or none of them do.

Why make the game anymore confusing?

The argument is not being made that interrupt/prevents are not as valid as negates, which would be silly since "Interrupt and Prevent" means "Negate" in current terms.  It's not the 'age' of the terms in question.

Rather, the question is whether it can been used during Special Initiative while activated as an artifact.  It was being presented that only enhancements can be used at all during Special Initiative, and that cards activated as artifacts (like CoN) could not therefore be used.

The two Elders who posted have agreed that it can be used in Special Initiative while activated as an artifact, but both are looking to make sure there isn't dissent from other Elders.

So the argument you're putting forward isn't being argued, and the consensus so far is that it can be used in SI.  We don't have a hard-and-fast ruling currently, but that is where we stand.

Considering that SirNobody's initial ideas about this ruling are the same as mine, I think it is likely that CoN and Unsuccessful will be ruled at Nats to be able to work in cases of special initiative.

As for your deck Wyatt, I would recommend that if you are used to playing with it in, then leave it in.  But also bring a backup card that you could replace it with at Nats if the ruling ends up going the other way.  You can ask me which way things ended up before T1-2p starts, so you'll be good to go either way.

I don't personally use it in my main Deck, but I just thought I may as well just toss that out there, that is what I understood was that SI jumps to before the effect triggers/completes so DoU would be able to be stopped by CoN and it would be the same for TC Enhancements. But it may have changed since I've been online last (a month ago)

Drrek is correct.  The whole idea of "special initiative" is that it is that state where your character is being removed from a battle by your opponent and causing you to be losing.

DoU is a card that removes yourself from battle, causing your opponent to "win" the battle (even though they don't get any LSs anymore, unless they play Harvest Time).  So it's a completely different situation than "special initiative".

My initial response is that Covenant with Noah can be used during special initiative and cannot be used to negate Death of Unrighteous and the like.

This is how I would rule on this matter as well.

I agree with Tim; I initially agree with the other Elders who have posted here, but if the discussion of special initiative specified that it allows only for the playing of an enhancement, then that either needs to be clarified or changed to reflect the way it is being ruled.

I don't really mind either way how it is ruled, although I have seen it used in Special Initiative situations ever since it was released, so in my mind, that is the status quo.

if the discussion of special initiative specified that it allows only for the playing of an enhancement, then that either needs to be clarified or changed to reflect the way it is being ruled.

I disagree with Pol on this point, because there never was a rule or ruling that disallowed the use of abilities on cards like CoN being used as artifacts.  Instead, it restricted the type of card played to enhancements, but that was only in the REG, where of course SI is not up-to-date, and cards like CoN are not played at that time.

Never in discussion of SI has I seen it stated that only enhancement SA can be used, and it has never been ruled in opposition to this ruling, so there really is no problem.

The only issue would be that the whole of Special Initiative needs to migrate over to the REG as soon as possible, since it is still incorrect.  Otherwise, there is no 'top-down' rule that this ruling goes against, Pol, unless you'd like to link to it.