Author Topic: Cov. with Moses vs. Unholy Writ (Read 3081 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **on:** May 29, 2010, 10:07:21 PM »

If my lone gold hero is about to be captured with Unholy Writ, can I play Covenant of Moses as an enhancement to negate it?

Covenant with Moses
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 7 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. Burial Shroud, Unholy Writ, Thirty Pieces of Silver, and Household Idols are negated for one round. May be used twice. • Identifiers: OT • Verse: Exodus 19:5-6 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Professoralstad · « **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2010, 10:31:32 PM »

Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts. At least that is my gut feeling, but this REG quote if applied more liberally than usual could possibly back up the idea:

Quote

A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.

The question is, is the player whose hero is being captured by Unholy Writ losing the current battle? I would guess so. I can't say anything for certain now though, until someone can provide further evidence one way or the other.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 29, 2010, 10:35:32 PM »

Hm...I can't seem to find anything in the REG that says this doesn't work...although the REG is not exceptionally clear about "special initiative" as far as I can see.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** May 29, 2010, 10:56:55 PM »

The rulebook only says this:

Redemption® Rulebook > Situation Descriptions > Losing the Battle > Losing by Removal because of a Special Ability

A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.

This only says "by an opposing special ability," which Unholy Writ would be. However, the question of initiative is relevant to a situation like this in general.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #4 on:** May 29, 2010, 11:03:28 PM »

But you wouldn't be able to negate it since when that ability goes through, it's in the discard pile...

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #5 on:** May 29, 2010, 11:10:08 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on May 29, 2010, 11:03:28 PM

But you wouldn't be able to negate it since when that ability goes through, it's in the discard pile...

I am trying to stop the capture, which happens before the discard.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #6 on:** May 29, 2010, 11:11:00 PM »

bingo.

Otherwise you could never negate anything, since you'd always be in another location..

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** May 29, 2010, 11:19:45 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 29, 2010, 10:31:32 PM

Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts.

Is this really true? What if I had two heroes in battle who were winning. My opponent now has initiative, but uses Unholy Writ to capture one of my heroes. I am now losing the battle. Does my opponent still have initiative?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2010, 12:16:15 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 29, 2010, 11:19:45 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 29, 2010, 10:31:32 PM
Interesting question, but I think initiative is only established in battle by characters or enhancements in battle. It is not established/transferred by any use of Artifacts.

Is this really true? What if I had two heroes in battle who were winning. My opponent now has initiative, but uses Unholy Writ to capture one of my heroes. I am now losing the battle. Does my opponent still have initiative?

No, because the Evil Character is winning due to its abilities. I can see where my wording would cause confusion; I can't really think of a better way to say it at the moment. Essentially, I was trying to say that I believe that the 'special initiative' that allows you to interrupt you being removed from battle only applies in situations where characters or enhancements are involved. I'd say you have an argument based on the vagueness of the rulebook and REG in regard to this situation, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2010, 07:41:51 AM »

So...... now I just wait for another Elder to comment?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** May 30, 2010, 01:38:51 PM »

Unholy Writ errata - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Discard or Remove > How to Use > Discarding Artifacts

Exhausted artifacts are discarded immediately and cannot be negated

If using Unholy Writ to capture your Hero causes you to be in a losing situation then I do believe that you have initiative to play any interrupt or negate card. For example, you could still play Jehoiada's Strength to add additional Heroes to battle. But because of the game rule pertaining to Artifacts that have been used up you would not be able to negate Unholy Writ with Covenant with Moses.

Once active, Unholy Writ cannot be negated so you can't play any interrupt/negate cards because of the transfer of initiative.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2010, 02:50:45 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 30, 2010, 01:38:51 PM

Unholy Writ errata - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Discard or Remove > How to Use > Discarding Artifacts
Exhausted artifacts are discarded immediately and cannot be negated
For example, you could still play Jehoiada's Strength to add additional Heroes to battle.

That wouldn't work because interrupt the battle interrupts the last in enhancement and ongoing SA on characters only.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2010, 04:13:12 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on May 30, 2010, 02:50:45 PM

That wouldn't work because interrupt the battle interrupts the last in enhancement and ongoing SA on characters only.

Quote from: Redemption® Rulebook > Situation Descriptions > Losing the Battle > Losing by Removal because of a Special Ability

A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2010, 04:29:29 PM »

Wait, now I am confused. That quote is not a universal acceptance, is it? I could not play Unified Kingdom in that case, just because it says "interrupt" in the special ability, could I? I would think you would have to be able to interrupt the removal (which you just said I can't) or interrupt the battle (which Hobbit demonstrated that you can't).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »

I would say the discard of the artifact should take place after the capture has been completed, which would be after a negate would be normally used. Since it says

Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use.

If it said: "Discard this card to..." then I would say it would already be in the discard pile so it would be unnegatable.

Just my thoughts

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2010, 08:18:32 AM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on May 30, 2010, 11:50:49 PM

If it said: "Discard this card to..." then I would say it would already be in the discard pile so it would be unnegatable.

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 30, 2010, 01:38:51 PM

Unholy Writ errata - If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2010, 10:34:15 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 30, 2010, 01:38:51 PM

Once active, Unholy Writ cannot be negated so you can't play any interrupt/negate cards because of the transfer of initiative.

I hate to still nitpick, but did you mean "Once used" rather than "Once active?" Unholy Writ can still be prevented or DoN'd prior to its use.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2010, 10:45:52 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 31, 2010, 10:34:15 AM

I hate to still nitpick, but did you mean "Once used" rather than "Once active?" Unholy Writ can still be prevented or DoN'd prior to its use.

Correct on all counts. You can stop it in advance, you just can't do anything about it once it's been discarded to capture the Hero.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2010, 02:52:58 PM »

I didn't realize it was errataed, then I think its uninteruptable

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Author Topic: Cov. with Moses vs. Unholy Writ (Read 3081 times)

TheHobbit13