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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: adotson85 on June 09, 2012, 03:32:12 AM
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1. In a type 2 game the only lost soul my opponent has is in Golgotha. I attack with Asahal and Band to Ishmaiah w/ Foreign Sword to place Golgotha on top of my opponent's deck. Is this a rescue attempt for the lost soul that was in Golgotha?
2. My opponent attacks with Uriah the Hittite w/ David in play. I block with ASA w/ horses and play forgotten history. Does Uriah's discard still occur?
Uriah the Hittite (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 6 / 2 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Protect Heroes in your territory from discard. After battle, if David is in play, discard Uriah and an Evil Character. Discard abilities cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Canaan, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Samuel 11:16 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
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Double yes.
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Q1. Yes, the only cards that don't follow to out of play is Lost Souls don't follow Sites.
Q2. Yes, Uriah's effect wasnt stopped because Discarding Uriah is an effect not a cost, so after the battle he still Discards an Evil Character, just like Habbukkuk does.
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Q1. Yes, the only cards that don't follow to out of play is Lost Souls don't follow Sites.
I know the lost soul doesn't follow, but the question is more along the lines of whether it would be a battle challenge or rescue attempt. I can't recall whether in type 2 you have to declare what soul you are rescuing before your hero enters battle or after. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning based on The Woman at the Well ruling in type 2 (which I can't seem to find with the search function).
Q2. Yes, Uriah's effect wasnt stopped because Discarding Uriah is an effect not a cost, so after the battle he still Discards an Evil Character, just like Habbukkuk does.
The reason i'm unsure of this is because of the Assyrian Archers/Forgotten History ruling. FH immediately ends the battle, which stops AA from being discarded. Wasn't sure if playing FH against Uriah would stop the discard since the battle is immediately ended.
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On Q1, I believe you have to declare before Hero enters Battle. It wouldn't matter if the Site is there or not.
I have never heard that ruling and that sounds incorrect, because it can't stop it's own effect. The effect finishes after battle so it should trigger even after you end the battle.
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The reason i'm unsure of this is because of the Assyrian Archers/Forgotten History ruling. FH immediately ends the battle, which stops AA from being discarded.
I've never heard that ruling, and I'm fairly certain it is very incorrect. If the battle ends and AA wasn't negated after you used him to snipe someone then he discard himself.
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From the REG:
If there are pending abilities when an end the battle ability occurs, the pending abilities never take effect.
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That doesn't really make any sense, though. End the battle abilities don't skip anything other than initiative, they just zoom ahead to battle resolution. There is no reason why "pending" abilities or triggers or anything else wouldn't fire as normal just because you played an end the battle ability.
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I've always seen end the battle as something like the final bell of a boxing match. When the final bell rings, no more punches can be thrown, the scores are added up and the outcome is determined.
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I've always seen end the battle as something like the final bell of a boxing match. When the final bell rings, no more punches can be thrown, the scores are added up and the outcome is determined.
That interpretation still doesn't change my thoughts, though. "After battle" abilities/triggers/etc. happen after battle resolution in battles ended by the number or non-"End the Battle" special ability anyway, so why is that different for something that just moves the battle to resolution automatically?
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I may not be able to change your thoughts on how you think it should be, but am just relaying how it has always been played. An end the battle ability stops the battle immediately. The numbers are added up at the time and no other pending abilities are allowed to complete.
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This is not its currently played nor how I have seen any Elder rule it, and I am commonly looking at the rulings, I believe this is meaning effects that may have been Interrupted or if I use a Weapon to play an ETB but I can also do other effects too, but it doesn't affect cards that trigger after battle, because it activates after the battle was resolved so ending the battle wouldn't affect the card.
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I did just notice a big omission from my post though. Archers has 2k horses on it. Was wondering why no one had ever heard of this ruling.
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I thought there was already a president that said you can't interrupt yourself, you can Negate yourself, but not Interrupt.
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I thought there was already a president that said you can't interrupt yourself, you can Negate yourself, but not Interrupt.
You can't interrupt your own enhancements, but your characters are fair game.
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I'm pretty sure u can't Interrupt your Characters.
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You can interrupt all ongoing abilities. This includes those on your own characters.
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1. In a type 2 game the only lost soul my opponent has is in Golgotha. I attack with Asahal and Band to Ishmaiah w/ Foreign Sword to place Golgotha on top of my opponent's deck. Is this a rescue attempt for the lost soul that was in Golgotha?
Yes. Technically you would declare the rescue against the Soul in Golgotha prior to the rescue. Then you play your characters and Golgotha is on top of the deck so now you are in a rescue attempt.
2. My opponent attacks with Uriah the Hittite w/ David in play. I block with ASA w/ horses and play forgotten history. Does Uriah's discard still occur?
I would rule yes. While ongoing SAs such as "discard after battle" would--in general--be interrupted by the horses, Uriah's ongoing SA is a discard SA which Uriah makes CBN.
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The way it works is this:
1. Archers perform the discard and setup an ongoing ability that will kill them at the end of battle.
2. 2K horses triggers interrupting all ongoing abilities including the one archers lays down (there is no rule stating that you cannot interrupt yourself).
3.The End the battle card occurs under the umbrella of the interrupt so it ends the battle in a state where the ongoing discard is interrupted so it does not get to reactivate.
This is how Archers 2k horse has been ruled ever since I started playing and hosting.
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The way it works is this:
1. Archers perform the discard and setup an ongoing ability that will kill them at the end of battle.
2. 2K horses triggers interrupting all ongoing abilities including the one archers lays down (there is no rule stating that you cannot interrupt yourself).
3.The End the battle card occurs under the umbrella of the interrupt so it ends the battle in a state where the ongoing discard is interrupted so it does not get to reactivate.
This is how Archers 2k horse has been ruled ever since I started playing and hosting.
Korunks layed it out perfectly.
Here's what 'Interrupt the battle' actually does:
1) Interrupts all ongoing affects, be they yours, or your opponents
2) Interrupts the last enhancement played in battle
3) Interrupts any ability triggered by your opponent that is removing you from battle.
This isn't actually in the REG anymore - But it used to be.
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You guys may have just been addressing the notion that "you cannot interrupt yourself," which I agree is a false premise.
However, they were not talking about Archers. This thread is about Uriah the Hittite's discard ability, which is CBN. I agree with MJB's conclusion of that question.
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Let's go back to MJB's current premise about battle challenge changing to rescue attempt in Type 2...I thought you had to have access with your PRIMARY hero, not a band due to a special ability on the character. Are you telling me that all this time I had a Seraph in play and a lost soul was in Nazareth I could have banded to a prophet and had access? I thought I had to find away to get rid of the site first or it was a battle challenge that you had to hope your opponent would accept so you use your Edge of the Sword or whatever....
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There was an earlier thread that I saw an Elder mention you can't interrupt your own Characters, even so I don't like the idea that After Battle abilities are on-going, because it makes it that I could ITB+End the battle and use my Archer for at least another snipe.
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Let's go back to MJB's current premise about battle challenge changing to rescue attempt in Type 2...I thought you had to have access with your PRIMARY hero, not a band due to a special ability on the character. Are you telling me that all this time I had a Seraph in play and a lost soul was in Nazareth I could have banded to a prophet and had access? I thought I had to find away to get rid of the site first or it was a battle challenge that you had to hope your opponent would accept so you use your Edge of the Sword or whatever....
Yes, I believe that is what I am telling you. For banding heroes you get to band the characters immediately and then they act as a team in terms of winning or losing the battle. Technically, in the case you outline it would be your prophet--not Seraph making the RA, but the prophet could well win the rescue solely because Seraph was able to play Protection of Angels.
I think you may be confusing this with the edge cases where there is both a LS limitation and a site. For example if you have the Female Only LS is a purple site, you cannot make an RA simply by banding Claudia to ET. This is so because Claudia does not have site access (so she cannot rescue), and ET is not a female (so he cannot rescue).
2. 2K horses triggers interrupting all ongoing abilities including the one archers lays down (there is no rule stating that you cannot interrupt yourself).
Korunks layed it out perfectly.
1) Interrupts all ongoing affects, be they yours, or your opponents
So are you saying that horses can interrupt an ongoing ability whose result is CBN?
There was an earlier thread that I saw an Elder mention you can't interrupt your own Characters...
Is it possible that what the Elder actually said is that you can't *be immune to* your own Characters? Because that claim would be correct, whereas what you are recalling is false.
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There was an earlier thread that I saw an Elder mention you can't interrupt your own Characters,...
You will have to source that quote, since it is likely you are taking it out of context.
... even so I don't like the idea that After Battle abilities are on-going, because it makes it that I could ITB+End the battle and use my Archer for at least another snipe.
Whether or not you like the fact that the Archer discard can be used more than once is not relevant to the ruling.
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2. 2K horses triggers interrupting all ongoing abilities including the one archers lays down (there is no rule stating that you cannot interrupt yourself).
Korunks layed it out perfectly.
1) Interrupts all ongoing affects, be they yours, or your opponents
So are you saying that horses can interrupt an ongoing ability whose result is CBN?
They were discussing the Archer's ongoing ability that discards itself after battle, not Uriah at that point, since this became an Inception ruling thread...again :P
As pointed out by others, the discard ability on Uriah is CBN, so even the interrupt cannot affect it and it will still occur after the battl.
There was an earlier thread that I saw an Elder mention you can't interrupt your own Characters,...
You will have to source that quote, since it is likely you are taking it out of context.
Agree with YMT. ITB interrupts ALL ongoing abilities. Doesn't matter if they are on characters or enhancements, if they are in the battle, they are suspended until the interrupt completes.
RDT: That part of the rules is still in the REG HERE (http://cactusgamedesign.com/REG/Master/specialconditions8.htm). Everyone should note that it does state ALL ongoing abilities in battle.
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Let's go back to MJB's current premise about battle challenge changing to rescue attempt in Type 2...I thought you had to have access with your PRIMARY hero, not a band due to a special ability on the character. Are you telling me that all this time I had a Seraph in play and a lost soul was in Nazareth I could have banded to a prophet and had access? I thought I had to find away to get rid of the site first or it was a battle challenge that you had to hope your opponent would accept so you use your Edge of the Sword or whatever....
Yes, I believe that is what I am telling you. For banding heroes you get to band the characters immediately and then they act as a team in terms of winning or losing the battle. Technically, in the case you outline it would be your prophet--not Seraph making the RA, but the prophet could well win the rescue solely because Seraph was able to play Protection of Angels.
I think you may be confusing this with the edge cases where there is both a LS limitation and a site. For example if you have the Female Only LS is a purple site, you cannot make an RA simply by banding Claudia to ET. This is so because Claudia does not have site access (so she cannot rescue), and ET is not a female (so he cannot rescue).
I realize now that having the prophet in my territory makes the example moot. What if it were my Seraph and your prophet with a lost soul with your Nazareth in play? Also, are we also saying that a Jacob banded to NT Michael wouldn't be able to rescue the NT lost soul from Hormah? I thought once characters were banded, they provided the identifier needed....or are we strictly talking about type 2 and having access? And if not, how have I missed this ruling since I've been playing the game, if the abilities are combined, offenses are combined, and defenses are combined, why aren't the identifiers?....
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2. 2K horses triggers interrupting all ongoing abilities including the one archers lays down (there is no rule stating that you cannot interrupt yourself).
Korunks layed it out perfectly.
1) Interrupts all ongoing affects, be they yours, or your opponents
So are you saying that horses can interrupt an ongoing ability whose result is CBN?
They were discussing the Archer's ongoing ability that discards itself after battle, not Uriah at that point, since this became an Inception ruling thread...again :P
As pointed out by others, the discard ability on Uriah is CBN, so even the interrupt cannot affect it and it will still occur after the battl.
There was an earlier thread that I saw an Elder mention you can't interrupt your own Characters,...
You will have to source that quote, since it is likely you are taking it out of context.
Agree with YMT. ITB interrupts ALL ongoing abilities. Doesn't matter if they are on characters or enhancements, if they are in the battle, they are suspended until the interrupt completes.
RDT: That part of the rules is still in the REG HERE (http://cactusgamedesign.com/REG/Master/specialconditions8.htm). Everyone should note that it does state ALL ongoing abilities in battle.
Huh,
I wonder why I couldn't find that earlier, I was even in the interrupt section.
Thanks for the link.
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I realize now that having the prophet in my territory makes the example moot. What if it were my Seraph and your prophet with a lost soul with your Nazareth in play?
That wouldn't make a difference. The main point is that the original determination of whether the attack is an RA or a BC occurs after the heroes are completely mustered for battle (in with all their SA activated). So, in this case you would have my prophet making an RA backed by the powers of your Seraph.
Also, are we also saying that a Jacob banded to NT Michael wouldn't be able to rescue the NT lost soul from Hormah?
Yes, that is precisely what I was saying. When Jacob bands to a NT Michael you have no single character who can rescue the NT Lost Soul from Hormah so the state of the attack is a Battle Challenge.
I thought once characters were banded, they provided the identifier needed....or are we strictly talking about type 2 and having access? And if not, how have I missed this ruling since I've been playing the game, if the abilities are combined, offenses are combined, and defenses are combined, why aren't the identifiers?....
Because identifiers are like brigades which are not combined. This actually makes sense, when you think about it. Banding Jacob to NT Michael does not make Jacob NT any more than it make Michael blue brigade. Also abilities are not combined. In the Jacob + Michael case, my blue brigade enhancements do not get played CBN because of Micheal. Most of the time we do not need to be this picky in discussions, but there are certain cases (and the LS access is one of them) where precision is required.
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The ITB would interrupt Uriah's ability, if it wasn't CBN.
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The ITB would interrupt Uriah's ability, if it wasn't CBN.
But that's the point, I was clarifying that the discussion about Archer is not applicable to Uriah since his ongoing ability is CBN.
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You do realize that if that was true, it makes the Archers heavily OP? Because now I can save him at least 3 times just in T1, and its worse in T2.
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You do realize that if that was true, it makes the Archers heavily OP? Because now I can save him at least 3 times just in T1, and its worse in T2.
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It is true, it's been true since (looks at watch) always, and I have yet to see this "heavily OP" archers deck you speak of.
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That's because no one who runs Archers obeys that crazy rule. I definately don't, and neither do people who run Archers that I've met.
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That's because no one (you've played) who runs Archers obeys that crazy rule.
FTFY.
We've been playing with it in MN since Priests, so believe me, there's nothing OP about it.
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That's because no one who runs Archers obeys that crazy rule. I definately don't, and neither do people who run Archers that I've met.
I agree with JSB's correction of your post. This is actually how the rule works, and you haven't had a good T2 tournament out here without seeing 4 archers band, last one has horses, and they play an end-the-battle card and watch the opponent cry.
That's the rule. Archer's ability is instant in the discarding of a hero, and ongoing in the discarding of Archer. An ITB like Horses interrupts all ongoing abilities, but not the instant abilities on your card. Therefore, the discard of a hero happens but if you play an End the Battle off of a play-next, the ongoing discard of Archer can never reactivate.
That's the rule, even if you've never actually seen it. It is quite annoying, mind you ;) But not terribly OP.
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Technoethicist, re-reading I am not sure if I answered your question or not. I know I have the ruling correct (Jacob + NT Micheal etc.), and what I wrote is how I came to understand it myself. If you need further explanation of why it is so, you may want to start a new thread. Maybe someone more sagacious than myself will answer.
That's the rule, even if you've never actually seen it. It is quite annoying, mind you ;) But not terribly OP.
It is also the primary reason why the other horsies do not allow archers to use the play enhancement part of their SA.
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Technoethicist, re-reading I am not sure if I answered your question or not. I know I have the ruling correct (Jacob + NT Micheal etc.), and what I wrote is how I came to understand it myself. If you need further explanation of why it is so, you may want to start a new thread. Maybe someone more sagacious than myself will answer.
No, that was quite clear, and hadn't really thought it about it like that. Thanks!
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Annoying doesn't cut it when I can pull it off at least twice in my main deck, and that's when its not doing well.
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You're right, in the five hours you've known about this combo you've obviously figured out more about it than every playtester, elder, and veteran T2 player over the past five years. :P
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No, I've found an easy way to exploit it, which came from the new set.
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No, I've found an easy way to exploit it, which came from the new set.
If you want the ruling changed I think you are going to need to create a deck that demonstrates the OP-ness of this. The Archers + Horses ruling has been in place at least as long as Forgotten History has (Priests), and that first year of Priests was a major piece of one of the dominant T2 defense metas (Assyrian swarm).
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How's this?
Egyptian Archer+Archer+Archer+Archer+EM+TDP+EHorses+Wonders Forgotten (up to 4 times) or Forgotten History (up to 4 times) for a grand total 36 Discarded Heroes in T2 before I have to Discard my Archers and at least 3 in T1.
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If your opponent is silly enough to allow you to do that that many times, then perhaps T2 is not the game for him. Most T2 players will either be protecting their Heroes in territory, negating the abilities of Archers, or not allowing them to use Horses.
No, I've found an easy way to exploit it, which came from the new set.
If you want the ruling changed I think you are going to need to create a deck that demonstrates the OP-ness of this. The Archers + Horses ruling has been in place at least as long as Forgotten History has (Priests), and that first year of Priests was a major piece of one of the dominant T2 defense metas (Assyrian swarm).
Technically the OP-ness originated in FoOF, when Assyrian Archer came out.
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How's this?
Egyptian Archer+Archer+Archer+Archer+EM+TDP+EHorses+Wonders Forgotten (up to 4 times) or Forgotten History (up to 4 times) for a grand total 36 Discarded Heroes in T2 before I have to Discard my Archers and at least 3 in T1.
You have fun getting that entirely set up and never prevented in a type II game.
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That does have u draw at least 5 each time, also I can run 4 Horses in a Deck, so it gets worse, plus with the card combos that Egyptians can pull off easily, it can get back quickly.
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If your opponent is silly enough to allow you to do that that many times, then perhaps T2 is not the game for him. Most T2 players will either be protecting their Heroes in territory, negating the abilities of Archers, or not allowing them to use Horses.
QFT.
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That does have u draw at least 5 each time, also I can run 4 Horses in a Deck, so it gets worse, plus with the card combos that Egyptians can pull off easily, it can get back quickly.
Then do it, because it has been tried, trust me. It seems better on paper than it really is, just like every other 8-card combo. Echoing everyone else here to tell you it is not that OP and will be stopped. Has been for years as far as I can tell, and when you see it now it's not the main point of the defense and you only get it off once (if you are very very lucky).
If you think it is so OP, just run the deck. You'll see for yourself.
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Usually your opponent would just opt to not attack rather than let you chain archers.
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How's this?
Egyptian Archer+Archer+Archer+Archer+EM+TDP+EHorses+Wonders Forgotten (up to 4 times) or Forgotten History (up to 4 times) for a grand total 36 Discarded Heroes in T2 before I have to Discard my Archers and at least 3 in T1.
I'm not sure you are even trying, megamanlan. ;)
If you started with King Mannaseh you could do King Manasseh w/ 2k Horses + EM + EArcher w/ Egyptian Spear + EArcher w/ Egyptian Spear + EArcher w/ Egyptian Spear + EArcher w/ Egyptian Spear + Huge Egyptian w/ EHorse + Wonder Forgotten (up to 4 times) or Forgotten History (up to 4 times) or Gibeonite Trickery (up to 4 times). But even that is not all, because prior to Huge Egyptian I would add in TDP w/ EHorse and use that to play Joseph's Brothers' Scheme, starting a side battle where I pit my Israelite Archer + Israelite Archer + Israelite Archer + Israelite Archer + Angel of God against some other hapless hero. This I would also do 4 times.
So toting it all up, I would discard 65 cards (over half of your deck!!!!) and kill 52 heroes and 16 ECs in territory. Adding it all up I have toasted 65 + 52 + 16 = 133 cards, which is 127% of your typical 105-card deck. Yowch.
Usually your opponent would just opt to not attack rather than let you chain archers.
Usually your opponent will wait to get his banding EC and then lick his chops while waiting for you to make a rescue.
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I actually run a T2 defense with archers and horses, it get toasted more often than it succeeds, maybe I am playing it wrong but even drawing the stoopid archers is enough of a challenge for me in T2!
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especially with the new rule of only 4 cards allowed now.
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That's why I don't base my deck around the Archers, but I can still pull off that combo a lot.