Author Topic: Few questions on Reg tonight in the Island's man (Read 3116 times)

tom4coop · « **on:** March 26, 2012, 07:04:22 PM »

1.) Adam (Red H) + Red Dragon (Crim EC) + Breastplate of Righteousness (Multi) + Freedom = Discard Red Dragon?

2.) Recruiting Officer (Red Hero) + Jael's Nail (Red) vs. Arioch EC (Black - Bab) + Dream BEE + Neb's Dream BEE = Mutual Destruction by Mutual Removal?

3.) If a third party in a multi player game throws SoG & NJ after two players have finished battling and my hero is going to Rescue a Soul - can these be played because the battle as already been decided or does the 3rd party effectively block the R A?

4.) Say a specific hero has immunity and an evil character plays Net (Black EE) - This has no effect correct? Players are saying that Hero is not dead just captured - Is this correct?

5.) Say Servant angel has waited his four turns with Gathering of Angels - What happens when he tries to band in Strong Angel - Is this negated or do both character's FBTN?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2012, 07:32:43 PM »

First, you may find it best to group similar questions together and post them separately. Some people don't respond to lists as quickly

Also, having the abilities does help, especially when you have so many cards quoted in one thread. Just a friendly tip

1. No. First, Freedom would remove an EC from the game if it affected it. Second, being immune to Crimson while the EC is immune to you just results in a stalemate of immunity. Red Dragon still can't be harmed by human heroes, and even if Adam is immune to him in turn, the immunity on Red Dragon would have to be interrupted or negated in order for Adam to harm him at all.

2. No. During the interrupt by Dream, Jael's Nail is suspended and must reactivate after the interrupting card completes. Part of that card is to be able to play the next card, and Neb's Dream enters play in the interrupted state. If Recruiting Officer is discarded by Neb's Dream (that is, they don't negate or interrupt it themselves), then when Jael's Nail tries to reactivate, there is no hero (if Recruiting Officer was alone). It then 'fizzles'. EC wins, Officer is discarded.

3. As long as there is not a situation where dominants cannot be played (such as after a "end the battle" card), yes, they can throw them down to rescue Souls from among all opponents' LoB. If that leaves the rescuing player without anything to rescue, tough cookies

4. Immunity means that the cards you are immune to you can't harm you. Since this is the second immune question, here's the REG definition to reference:

Quote

A card that is immune cannot be targeted by an ability, other than a negate or interrupt ability, that is on a card to which it is immune or on a card played on that card. Additionally when comparing the strength of one character to the toughness of a second character that is immune to the first character, the strength of the first character is treated as zero unless it is negative.

So no, you cannot capture a character in this case unless you interrupt or negate the immunity.

5. Good question: he is able to band. The reason is that gained abilities from set-aside cards are effectively Cannot Be Negated.

tom4coop · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:34:45 PM »

1. Thus the example in 1 = Stalemate by mutual immunity

2. Mmmm - what would be an example where one player plays a discard on a EC and the Hero is discarding and EC and it = mutual destruction by mutual removal

3. Got it - still trying to understand the section d. in the Reg on diagram of a turn where it says - Dominants can not be played.

4. One more on Immunity - Satan's seat says negate protect abilities - does this statement = Character's with Immunity

5. Does this same rule apply's to Simeon and Moses, A character say Lot's wife with King of Tyrus, Prince of this World ect. How do theses differ with the set aside rule in effect / not in effect?

P.S. 1 Is there a current list of can we get the list of prophets priests ect.

Red Wing · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:39:39 PM »

Quote from: tom4coop on March 26, 2012, 09:34:45 PM

4. One more on Immunity - Satan's seat says negate protect abilities - does this statement = Character's with Immunity No, Immunity is not the same as a protect.
P.S. 1 Is there a current list of can we get the list of prophets priests ect. http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/. Click on Glossary of Terms and go to Definitions.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2012, 10:28:02 PM »

1. Exactly

2. An example would be:
Samson's Sacrifice (FF)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 8 / -1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a judge, negate and discard one O.T. evil Fortress or occupied Site in play to discard all cards in battle and all human Evil Characters in opponent’s territory.

This would be Mutual Destruction by Removal, as all cards in battle are being removed from that battle. The EC would have the opportunity to attempt to stop it with an Interrupt or Negate as per the special initiative rules. It is also important to note that in this case the rescue is not successful (Mutual by Removal). For the Mutual defeats, only if it is by the numbers is the rescue still successful.

5. Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Abilities that are gained by a set-aside card (such as the banding from Gathering of Angels) is effectively CBN once the character returns with the ability. It cannot be stopped by characters like Moses and King of Tyrus.

However, abilities that can be interrupted or negated, like Simeon's, would be stopped by a character/enhancement negating him (though, note that his ability Cannot Be Negated by an evil card, but a good card could do it).

In addition, just so you're aware, if Lot's Wife bands to King of Tyrus, KoT negates the band. However, a character cannot indirectly negate itself, so the battle would remain what is called Fight By the Numbers, where all abilities are negated (unless they can't be negated, like Simeon by an evil card). Hope that wasn't too much

On the list of prophets/priests, I'm wondering if you meant a card list of the sets or all characters of that type.

If you meant the former, I recommend using Three Lions Gaming's list, it's in an easy-to-read format.

Of you wanted a list of characters, the REG can be searched by identifier, but an even better resource is http://redemptionlive.com/#/Visualizer.

tom4coop · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:09:35 PM »

Getting ready for another night of Redemption - your answers have really cleared up a few things except for the second part of 5.

2. Then mutual destruction by mutual removal is when one plays a card that removes all cards - its not both throwing removal cards at each other correct?

5. A. Ok so set aside banding cards are > than Moses and King of Tyrus - so they band in and then the battle becomes a FBTN correct? And non set aside cards are < than Moses and King of Tyrus and therefore gets negated - for example - We are currently playing KoT negates Adams special ability with Eve thus making it FBTN Adam vs. Kot - is this correct?

B. Little lost on your explanation to 5. CBN = ?

C. In regards to this statement - "In addition, just so you're aware, if Lot's Wife bands to King of Tyrus, KoT negates the band. " - Therefore Lot's Wife remains in play and KoT returns to his territory and the battle resumes as normal Lot's wife verses Hero and is not FBTN (because KoT is not in play) correct?

D. In regards to this statement - "However, a character cannot indirectly negate itself, so the battle would remain what is called Fight By the Numbers, where all abilities are negated (unless they can't be negated, like Simeon by an evil card)". Hope that wasn't too much - (Wow - Smile - Maybe so) - This makes me think KoT comes in and then goes out and everything is FBTN? Or are you saying it comes in kicks out Lot's wife and takes on say Lydia and Lot's wife (the original BC) suffers no consequence?

E. A question about converted banding - once a evil character is converted (Holy Grail) and is actually a hero - does there evil special abilities work exactly as it reads on the card when making a rescue attempt to redeem a lost soul. This can get really hairy theologically huh?

One New Question relating to L S & Abilities - When you capture your opponents (E C or Hero) and its being treated as a LS and it gets shuffled - does it come back out of (your deck or your opponent's deck). as a L S or back as a( E C / Hero) as your's or his and does this effect the (E C / Hero's) special abilities?

Character's in a territory don't have there abilities active until they enter the Battle correct? For example Abednego doesn't protect all hero's from conversion unless he's is active in a Battle? Any exemptions to this - L S ect.?

No - I went to the Reg and we now have the list of Priests / Prophets ect. - www.redemptionlive.com = Awesome!! Thanks

Red Wing · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:19:30 PM »

Quote from: tom4coop on March 27, 2012, 05:09:35 PM

Getting ready for another night of Redemption - your answers have really cleared up a few things except for the second part of 5.

E. A question about converted banding - once a evil character is converted (Holy Grail) and is actually a hero - does there evil special abilities work exactly as it reads on the card when making a rescue attempt to redeem a lost soul. This can get really hairy theologically huh?
Quote
REG:
Instant Abilities > Convert
How to Play

A converted card always retains its special ability. If its special ability is consistent with the nature of its new converted state then its special ability activates normally. If its special ability goes against the nature of its new converted state then its special ability does not activate, even if a game action is performed that would normally cause its ability to activate.

Quote

REG:
Instant Abilities > Convert

For the sake of simplicity, all Hero abilities are considered inconsistent with the nature of an Evil Character.

Character's in a territory don't have there abilities active until they enter the Battle correct? For example Abednego doesn't protect all hero's from conversion unless he's is active in a Battle? Correct, Character abilities do not activate until they are placed into battle.

tom4coop · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:30:43 PM »

Thanks Red Wing - Here we go one more time on this with the Reg again - "If its special ability is consistent with the nature of its new converted state then its special ability activates normally. If its special ability goes against the nature of its new converted state then its special ability does not activate, even if a game action is performed that would normally cause its ability to activate."

Does this mean for example - If Lots wife is converted it cannot band in an evil character while making a R A?

Therefore Theology > Reg

Red Wing · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:34:48 PM »

Quote from: tom4coop on March 27, 2012, 05:30:43 PM

Does this mean for example - If Lots wife is converted it cannot band in an evil character while making a R A?

No, Lot's Wife could not band in an EC when converted. It is a game rule that Evil Characters cannot band to Heroes.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:37:06 PM »

2. yes

5. a. yes

b. Not sure what you mean. CBN means Cannot Be Negated, which means that Interrupt, prevent, and Negate don't work against an ability that is CBN. For example, you block with KoT and most abilities dont work but I play Authority of Christ promo and the ability still does work because it is CBN.

c. yes/no Lots wife remains in battle, KoT returns to territory (which is still in play), the battle resumes as normal Lot's wife versus Hero and is still FBTN because of statement in D.

d. Yes, KoT enters the battle, negates the band, kicks himself out of battle, and the battle remains FBTN.

e. Currently it is - abilities of the evil character convert unless the ability as an evil character would target a hero. There are some odd situations with this but most are simple enough. Abilities like draw, look at hand, discard from hand or deck will work as a hero. Abilities like convert, capture, discard, remove a hero will not.

Lost soul question- The lost souls and captured characters get shuffled into their owners decks. It is a game rule that all cards reset to their original status when they go to discard pile, deck or hand. So when they are redrawn it will be like the first time you drew them this game. The only sort of exception is for abilities that are X times per game, like Jepthah. The "counter" for that goes on the game and is not reset by anything.

Character ability question - The default rule is that character and enhancement abilities are only activated in battle and even if they are ongoing, end at the end of the battle phase. The partial exception is for character abilities that say "while in play" which lets the ability remain active back in territory but it still has to first be activated in battle, like Simon the Zealot or Judas Iscariot. There are more exceptions for enhancements.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:43:19 PM »

Quote

Thanks Red Wing - Here we go one more time on this with the Reg again - "If its special ability is consistent with the nature of its new converted state then its special ability activates normally. If its special ability goes against the nature of its new converted state then its special ability does not activate, even if a game action is performed that would normally cause its ability to activate."

Does this mean for example - If Lots wife is converted it cannot band in an evil character while making a R A?

He is correct that it is a game rule that characters can't band to characters of opposite alignment. However that Reg quote is odd. It is either from an outdated version, never got correctly updated with the new reg, or they made another rule change that has not been announced yet. I know that what I stated on conversion has been the status quo.

Red Wing · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2012, 05:48:40 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 27, 2012, 05:43:19 PM

Quote
Thanks Red Wing - Here we go one more time on this with the Reg again - "If its special ability is consistent with the nature of its new converted state then its special ability activates normally. If its special ability goes against the nature of its new converted state then its special ability does not activate, even if a game action is performed that would normally cause its ability to activate."

Does this mean for example - If Lots wife is converted it cannot band in an evil character while making a R A?

He is correct that it is a game rule that characters can't band to characters of opposite alignment. However that Reg quote is odd. It is either from an outdated version, never got correctly updated with the new reg, or they made another rule change that has not been announced yet. I know that what I stated on conversion has been the status quo.

The quote is from the current REG. I couldn't remember the exact wording of the convert ruling (why I quoted the REG…), but what you said does sound correct.

tom4coop · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

I think after I announce this tonight everybody is going to be looking for CBN cards. If you see a CBN vs. a CBN how do you know which takes precedence?

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2012, 07:23:56 PM »

Quote from: tom4coop on March 27, 2012, 06:12:40 PM

I think after I announce this tonight everybody is going to be looking for CBN cards. If you see a CBN vs. a CBN how do you know which takes precedence?

If you play people running the current meta, expect a lot of CBN. Here's the rule on these cards:

CBP - Cannot Be Prevented - These cards cannot be prevented, or stopped by cards that came before them. So if you have an ability like Moses, anything coming after him is prevented (an ongoing negate is the same as a prevent to cards played after it). These cards can be interrupted or negated. They can also be targeted by cards that say "interrupt and prevent", as that translates to "negate" on current cards and the card came into play after the CBP card (that's the most important part).

CBI - Cannot Be Interrupted - These cards cannot be interrupted or negated by cards that came after them. So if you have a card like Jair (Protect O.T. Heroes from decrease. Cannot be interrupted.), your opponent cannot negate or interrupt that ability after it is played to decrease any OT heroes. These cards can be prevented, however, by a card coming before them. For example, if Covenant with Death (Negate characters) is active, Jair's ability is prevented and cannot activate.

CBN - Cannot be Negated - Cannot be stopped, not no way not no how. Prevent, interrupt, negate, it laughs at them all. For example, Gomer has a band that is CBN (unless Hosea is in play). That means she could band to King of Tyrus without the band being undone as long as Hosea isn't out.

On converted Evil Characters, the general rule is "Does this harm a hero?" If it does, then it does not convert when the character is converted.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:00:51 AM »

Almost. It's "does it target a Hero." By definition, nothing a Hero does can harm a Hero.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:04:00 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 30, 2012, 05:00:51 AM

Almost. It's "does it target a Hero." By definition, nothing a Hero does can harm a Hero.

Banding targets a hero, so would you say that banding abilities do not convert with them?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:11:43 AM »

If an Evil Character says "may band with a Hero," that would not convert, no.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2012, 06:50:42 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 30, 2012, 08:11:43 AM

If an Evil Character says "may band with a Hero," that would not convert, no.

I know that it has been ruled that FBTN converts, and that targets a hero, too. The only difference between these two targets is that negating characters does not count as "harm" by the definition.

You would say that a converted Egyptian Cupbearer cannot add your Genesis hero to battle when its ability concludes? If so, then you'll have to explain it to everyone who's been doing that, which I have seen REPs use in real-life and also seems to be used on-line

galadgawyn · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:22:09 AM »

FWIW, I personally don't like the current convert rules. I really preferred the old rules so you didn't have a hero ability do things like bury lost souls.

Quote

I know that it has been ruled that FBTN converts, and that targets a hero, too. The only difference between these two targets is that negating characters does not count as "harm" by the definition.

I think the difference is that it is ruled that FBTN doesn't target a hero; rather the negate abilities target the abilities they are negating. Not entirely sure why the distinction is made but that is why FBTN can convert.

Not sure about abilities that could target a hero but don't necessarily like capture a human or Egytian.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:29:09 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on March 30, 2012, 06:50:42 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 30, 2012, 08:11:43 AM
If an Evil Character says "may band with a Hero," that would not convert, no.

I know that it has been ruled that FBTN converts, and that targets a hero, too. The only difference between these two targets is that negating characters does not count as "harm" by the definition.

You would say that a converted Egyptian Cupbearer cannot add your Genesis hero to battle when its ability concludes? If so, then you'll have to explain it to everyone who's been doing that, which I have seen REPs use in real-life and also seems to be used on-line

Except Cupbearer specifically says "character" for a reason. Likewise, Assyrian Archer, when converted, can band to another converted Assyrian.

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:22:20 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 31, 2012, 12:29:09 AM

Except Cupbearer specifically says "character" for a reason. Likewise, Assyrian Archer, when converted, can band to another converted Assyrian.

My point exactly. I have not seen a ruling or rule that has said any differently, but of course this is one of "those" topics, so who knows

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:03:28 PM »

Actually, you're just missing an important part of the rule. If an evil character targets Heroes, it does not work. It has to SPECIFICALLY target a Hero. Not just anything that may potentially target a Hero, but it actually has to say the word "Hero" in part of its target to not work. So any Evil Ability that Discards an Evil Character, a Character, a Human, an Assyrian, Abner, or any other thing like that converts fine. It's only when it Discards a "Hero" that it doesn't convert.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:09:19 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 31, 2012, 04:03:28 PM

Actually, you're just missing an important part of the rule. If an evil character targets Heroes, it does not work. It has to SPECIFICALLY target a Hero. Not just anything that may potentially target a Hero, but it actually has to say the word "Hero" in part of its target to not work. So any Evil Ability that Discards an Evil Character, a Character, a Human, an Assyrian, Abner, or any other thing like that converts fine. It's only when it Discards a "Hero" that it doesn't convert.

*ponders* That does seem to be largely consistent with what I've seen ruled, but where is that particular rule coming from? Or is there an original ruling on this I can reference?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:17:09 PM »

Since the wrong rule is in the REG idk where to point you, tbh.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 31, 2012, 04:17:09 PM

Since the wrong rule is in the REG idk where to point you, tbh.

Ah...and of course, this is why there are problems with these types of rulings.

If anyone knows of a thread where this ruling is specified, can you post it please?

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Author Topic: Few questions on Reg tonight in the Island's man (Read 3116 times)

Chronic Apathy