Author Topic: 5 to 5 tie??? (Read 3163 times)

robm · « **on:** June 10, 2009, 10:54:56 PM »

Ok so I have been teaching one of my best friends how to play Redemption and have had a lot of questions arise that I have not been able to answer. as well as questions to rulings that he has raised.

First question has to do with dominates.

1. My Friend make a resuce attemp with a red hero.
I play a larger evil charcater to block and then he uses freedom to remove my evil character from the game.

Can I use Son of God to rescue the only lost soul in my territory or is the battle over and he gets the lost soul?

2. Here is a slightly more complicated situation that may give us both 5 lost souls rescued.

Before the battle I have three LS, he has 4 LS.

He make a rescue attempt with Mentor and another NT Red hero.
I play complainers and foolishly switch them for a 3/4 Hero giving him the turn to play freedom and remove my evil character from the game.
I then play Son of God and NJ to rescue 2 Lost souls in my territory. (That gives me 5)

Do I still give him 1 of the remaining LS in my territory?? (Giving him 5 and tieing the game???)

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:01:14 PM »

In both cases the person playing the dominant wins the lost soul(s) before the battle is resolved. Until the lost soul is handed over it is not won!

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:02:12 PM »

In the second situation, the game ends when you get to 5 LS, so you would win 5-4.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:02:53 PM »

Right!

robm · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:11:24 PM »

That what I thought but am I unsure how to explain that ruling to my friend.

Is it as simple as the battle is never over until I hand you my lost Soul.

Or is some case until everyone has had to option to play a dominate??

Like when I had a LS in my Land of Redemption and had its eternal security take it from to because every had not had the wonder opportunity to use CM or Burial.

crustpope · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:42:44 PM »

Simply put, the lost soul is not rescued until it is handed over and all dominats/artifacts or other battle altering cards have been played. If one person makes it to 5 LS before the rescue is completed, then the game ends there. The first person to five automatically wins.

Only if two people reach five LS at the same time (this can ONLY happen in the case of a 2 liner LS because even dominants have an order that they are played in and if two people who have 4 rescued souls play SOG, the first one that hits the table wins, even if there are a gazillion LS for the other SoG to rescue.)

With the two liner or three liner, the two rescued LS enter their respective LoR at the same time so if each of you rescues half of a two liner LS and you each had 4 rescued souls before that, then you both tie.

robm · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:47:56 PM »

Thanks Matt.

I will have my friend read this post. It should clarify things for him.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:18:37 AM »

so what about all the scenerios where it is mutual destruction by the numbers? You let your ec die and now with rescuers choice can the opponent play sog for the block?

sk · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2009, 04:46:45 AM »

Once battle resolution begins, you can't play an instant prior to the lost soul being rescued by the hero. The instant must be played prior to the battle ending.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2009, 06:20:09 AM »

So what about cards that force battle resolution? (Forgotten History, Heavy Taxes etc.) I always understood the rule to be something along the lines of the following:
"If the battle ends via special ability, then then dominants can be played prior to the lost soul being handed over; However if Evil Character dies via numbers all dominants must be played before he is moved to d/c pile."

I'd pull up the past rulings but I'm short on time, and not entirely sure if thats accurate though I think it is.

The Schaef · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2009, 06:43:54 AM »

if the battle phase is ended, the fate of the Lost Soul must be determined first. If you were dumb enough to play Forgotten History and lose your fifth Lost Soul, it's too late at that point to use Dominants to catch up.

adamfincher · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:44:03 AM »

the foolish player (aka u) wins

galadgawyn · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2009, 05:08:59 PM »

It does not mean that the player is dumb. What if the opponent is going for their fifth lost soul and out of desperation you play Heavy Taxes even though you'll lose the battle (you have nothing else) and hope to draw something in the two cards to help? You're saying that you can't use those cards.

I understand that the current rule structure does not allow it but it just seems kind of lousy to not be able to use your SoG or CM that you drew. I'm torn here because I think it was more enjoyable when you had more freedom to play your dominants but I understand that more complexity in card abilities (which I like) requires things to be more concrete.

robm · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:14:02 PM »

So if you play heavy taxes and are still loosing some how.... (seems unlikely)

You would not be able to play burial or CM???

Ouch.

crustpope · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:20:36 PM »

well, dominats can only be played before the battle phase has ended in order to influence whether a LS is being surrendered. SO if a card forces the battle to end and you are still losing, then I guess you couldnt play those dominants for blocks. Even an AOTL doesnt work if one of thos CBN battle enders has been played.

robm · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:30:55 PM »

so if an evil charater is removed from the game during the battle phase and I have no artifacts in play like unholy writ or unknown nation to either capture the hero or add another evil character to battle. What determines when the battle phase is over?

I Can still play SoG, NJ, CM, Burial. But where is the official explanation on why I can.

But if I end the battle phase with Heavy taxes in a loosing situation say at a last attempt to draw out SoG to get 5 before my opponent. Battle Phase is over he has won, so I cannot play SoG to steal the win?

Correct??

The Schaef · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:38:03 PM »

Players can use Artifacts, play Dominants, etc. at any point during the Battle Phase. The Battle Phase ends when all involved parties agree no more cards will be played, or when the battle is immediately ended in some way (i.e. special ability).

Quote from: galadgawyn on June 11, 2009, 05:08:59 PM

It does not mean that the player is dumb. What if the opponent is going for their fifth lost soul and out of desperation you play Heavy Taxes even though you'll lose the battle (you have nothing else) and hope to draw something in the two cards to help? You're saying that you can't use those cards.

Since Heavy Taxes ends the battle, there is nothing in the next two cards that will help, because they can't be played. The game ends the instant the score hits five, so what you do not want is to force yourself to lose your fifth Lost Soul.

Quote from: robm on June 11, 2009, 10:14:02 PM

So if you play heavy taxes and are still loosing some how.... (seems unlikely)

If I have three cards in hand and draw two more, turning a 10/1 Emperor into a 10/6 Emperor, against a 6/6 Hero, you lose due to mutual destruction.

crustpope · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:38:23 PM »

with Schaef. You can play as many Dom's/Arts as you want if a hero or EC is losing by Special ability, even a CBN Capture/Conversion/Etc. Because even though those things are happening, the battle phase is not over until the LS is handed over. You can play DOM's until the cows come home if you want to in those situations.

What we are talking about are those cards that immediately end the battle. Gibeonite Trickery, WOnders Forgotten. Forgotten History, Heavy Taxes. These cards end the battle, period and at that time you count up the numbers and determin the winner and then hand over the LS because that cards ability has to complete (i.e. the battle has to immediately end) before any more Dom's/Arts can be played.

But these are the only cards that I know of (besides ALtar of Ahaz or Lampstand) that prevent Dom's from being played to affect the battle outcome.

robm · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:43:04 PM »

Thanks. That makes sence.

Athough I did not do this, the lesson of the day would be to not end a battle that you are lossing.

The beauty of heavy taxes is the Fortress Rome, given my emperors first strike until the new set comes out.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2009, 08:33:20 AM »

Quote

It does not mean that the player is dumb.

It does in my case... At SE Regionals two years ago, I was using a Brown/Pale Green defense in T2 2p. I blocked the Strong Angel who had a few counters with a Pale Green Evil Character and proceeded to play Forgotten History, only to realize I couldn't do simple math... $:-\$

Kirk

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Author Topic: 5 to 5 tie??? (Read 3163 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef