Author Topic: Goliath vs. Angels Sword (Read 2742 times)

Nameless · « **on:** June 26, 2011, 05:00:32 PM »

Your opponent goes out with Michael with angels sword on him. You block with Goliath. Does Michael get returned and not get to play an enhancement because of angels sword or does he get to play an enhancement before being returned.

Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
See also:
• Cannot be Negate
• Negate
• Return

Angel's Sword (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play an enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Numbers 22:23 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)
See also:
• Play An Enhancement

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** June 26, 2011, 05:06:20 PM »

My gut instinct was no, since Michael is no longer in battle. However, I remembered the Spy/Warrior Spear's ruling of "It entered battle, it wasn't negated". I'm guessing you get to play the first enhancement after you present a new hero. So, you could then put out Men of Judah and get to play first.

INE.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2011, 01:44:57 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on June 26, 2011, 05:06:20 PM

My gut instinct was no, since Michael is no longer in battle. However, I remembered the Spy/Warrior Spear's ruling of "It entered battle, it wasn't negated". I'm guessing you get to play the first enhancement after you present a new hero. So, you could then put out Men of Judah and get to play first.

INE.

Nope. ASword says: "Hero may play the first enhancement." That means that only Michael can play the first enhancement. If ASword said holder, it would work, but Mike is returned before ASword is triggered, and by that time, Mike can't play an enhancement.

Deck Metrics · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:17:54 PM »

Really? I thought Michael would be able to play an enhancement. Does a warrior class enhancement placed on Michael the same as being played by Michael?

Michael (Ki)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 12 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Enhancements played with Michael cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Angel • Verse: Daniel 10:13 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Ultra Rare)

See also:

• Cannot be Negate

I figured since he entered battle 1st and cannot be negated, Angel's Sword would work against the Goliath promo. Interesting...

SomeKittens · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:40:17 PM »

If somehow he's protected from withdraw, then yes, it's totally possible. The problem is that by the time Sword goes off, Michael is no longer in battle to play an enhancement. (Would it be possible to play TC?)

Deck Metrics · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:44:44 PM »

Doesn't Angel's Sword have to be carried out to completion? Does withdrawal interrupt special abilities?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:56:37 PM »

It doesn't, but the game rule that normal enhancements can only be played in battle says otherwise. (Still waiting on an answer about that TC)

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2011, 02:30:34 PM »

No on TC. Those can only be played in battle on a character in battle as normal, or in the prep phase on a character in territory.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:14:52 PM »

They can't be played during discard phase?

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:17:08 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 28, 2011, 04:14:52 PM

They can't be played during discard phase?

They can, I think he just forgot to include that.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:19:34 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 27, 2011, 01:44:57 PM

Nope. ASword says: "Hero may play the first enhancement." That means that only Michael can play the first enhancement. If ASword said holder, it would work, but Mike is returned before ASword is triggered, and by that time, Mike can't play an enhancement.

So this is another "Play As" that is a meaningless addition to the REG that only confuses the readers?

So, just to be clear, we should not be using the REG at all any more. We should only go by what the card says, regardless of the problems that will inherently create.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:46:56 PM »

Quote from: browarod on June 28, 2011, 04:17:08 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 28, 2011, 04:14:52 PM
They can't be played during discard phase?
They can, I think he just forgot to include that.

*wipes sweat off* Good thing. I thought I'd been playing it wrong all this time.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:50:53 PM »

Y'all can minus my post all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the REG "Play As" says "Holder," which makes the Professor's ruling invalid.

This is when Polarius comes in with the whole "Play As that are erratas are to be ignored." So my question again is whether we should disregard all "Play As" in the REG, since it is not fair for hosts to have to decide what is or is not an errata.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:55:36 PM »

An Errata changes the ability, Play As just rewords it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:00:03 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 28, 2011, 04:55:36 PM

An Errata changes the ability, Play As just rewords it.

Many would argue that changing the words is changing the ability, so your quote is invalid.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:05:05 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 28, 2011, 04:55:36 PM

An Errata changes the ability, Play As just rewords it.

Quite a few people would disagree with the above, saying that once the phrase on the card had been reworded, said phrase was inherently different. Therefore, the above is outside the context of the current discussion.

Looks like I said the same thing, just different words. I understand why you have a problem with this (I've got the same one) but I don't understand why you have such a big problem. Can we take this to PMs?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:08:49 PM »

No thanks. I want an Elder to tell me whether the Play As on cards in the REG should be disregarded. If not, then I would like a detailed list of which Play As should be used, and which Play As should not be used. I will not respond to any other person who posts about my question... only Elders.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:23:55 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 28, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

... since it is not fair for hosts to have to decide what is or is not an errata.

You bring up this topic a lot. The whole idea of how hard it is for you to make a correct ruling when you host. Obviously you put a great deal of effort into making the right ruling. I respect that. It's important that we as hosts do our best to make sure we make correct rulings. What are the implications if you make an "incorrect" or "bad" ruling?

Do your players throw a tantrum? Do they refuse to forgive you? Do they suddenly hate the game and stop playing? Do people place side bets on the games at your tournaments? Is it only about being right?

I would venture to say that every tournament I've been to, including Nationals, has had a bad ruling of some kind. For every bad ruling there are many, many correct ones. The bad rulings don't usually determine the outcome of the game, but occasionally they might.

Even if the REG and Rulebook were perfect, every host is still going to make an incorrect ruling sometimes. It's simply the nature of a complex rules based system. For a game where fun and fellowship are the primary focus and prize support is not all that enticing, it doesn't seem worth it to get anxious about the potential to make a bad ruling.

Having said all that, I do agree with you 100% that it would be nice to have a REG and Rulebook that are completely accurate. But one thing I've observed in the last few years is that no amount of complaining or sarcastic remarks will get the new REG published.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:25:31 PM »

That doesn't answer my question.

Gabe · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:37:22 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 28, 2011, 05:25:31 PM

That doesn't answer my question.

I chose to address the heart of the matter rather than put a band-aid on it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:40:32 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 28, 2011, 05:23:55 PM

What are the implications if you make an "incorrect" or "bad" ruling?

Connecticut State Tournament 2008 (my first major tournament as a host):

Two experienced, highly-competitive, nationally-ranked players have a disagreement. The debate gets heated. Roy, John and I do our best to resolve and diffuse the situation. The players escalate by getting in each other's face. Most of the tournament participants were young players from the Christian school. Their parents approach me concerned about what was going on, and whether they should leave.

Later, we realize that the ruling in question was incorrect. One of the two starts to debate with the host group about the error and its implications (which ended up being RNRS relevant). Even though a final resolution was made, I left that experience very upset about the way the players handled it.

I'm not sure if that fits the definition of a tantrum, but that is an example of the nonsense I have had to put up with when I am uncertain about rulings. I would prefer not to have a repeat.

I apologize for my whining.

Gabe · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:54:31 PM »

I'm sorry you had to be part of that. It sounds like a terrible experience.

I would suggest that if you, Roy and John could make an inaccurate ruling (I've witnessed similar "heavy weight panels" get a ruling wrong at Nationals) that a better REG isn't going to make that situation unavoidable. Under most circumstances I would assume that a ruling determined by that group of people is accurate.

It sounds like the real issue was not an outdated REG and rulebook, but pride and lack of love for others. There's really no good excuse for players to act like that. I can say that knowing exactly how those two players felt because I've been in their shoes. If it hasn't happened already I'd like to point out that this has provided a great opportunity for all parties involved to practice humility, repentance and forgiveness.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2011, 06:43:57 PM »

The reason I bring up ruling concerns a lot is best evidenced by recent threads started by Perri and theselfevident. When I first came to the boards, I was frustrated that I had been making many incorrect rulings (i.e. allowing players to rescue their own LSs using Jacob's Ladder). As I posted questions, I got the same response slammed in my face:

"Read the Rulebook"
"It's in the REG."

After much discomfort, I adapted to this premise. I started making all my rulings (and answers to others' questions) from the REG and rulebook. I became so well acquainted with both documents, that I am ususally the first to find relevant quotes therein.

Now, all of that training is useless. I understand that the boards have become the new authority, but the boards are much harder to find necessary quotes than the REG was. "Search" is not nearly as useful as some presume, especially in the middle of a tournament. Waiting for post responses during a tournament is also not practical with timed rounds.

I find it frustrating that so many card entries were changed in anticipation of the new REG release. But since the new REG has not been released (and we have been talking about this for over a year), now many card entries are confusing.

I am trying to represent the opinion of new hosts in particular, who may be having the same struggles I had several years ago. Unfortunately,...

"Read the Rulebook"
"It's in the REG."

... no longer work. In fact, they have the exact opposite result. This only increases the likelihood of a new host having to go through what I had to. I would not wish that on anyone, so I post my objections here. I am unfortunately not very good about how I voice my frustrations. Sorry about that. $:-\$

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:47:41 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 28, 2011, 05:08:49 PM

I want an Elder to tell me whether the Play As on cards in the REG should be disregarded.

There are 2 threads on this forum which have the official corrections to the REG and the changes to the rules. Other than those, you should just rule according to your best judgement of the REG and the rulebook.

If you wonder about something outside of a time-restricted tournament setting, feel free to ask questions here on the forum, and if a change needs to be made, it will be added to one of those 2 threads. If you end up making an incorrect decision at some point, then don't worry about it. We all make mistakes. As long as you are trying your best, then you're doing the right thing

Deck Metrics · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:57:39 PM »

I brought up this question with my brother yesterday and he mentioned which also made a lot of sense, that inorder for Angel's Sword to activate, a human evil character has to enter battle so I guess its possible for Goliath to push out Michael?

News:

Author Topic: Goliath vs. Angels Sword (Read 2742 times)

Warrior_Monk

browarod