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According to that, you wouldn't get to select a LS if not all of the cards in your hand were discarded (i.e. if one went to chamber). I think your opponent MIGHT be able to save the block even if one or more of the cards is insteaded, but I can't really explain my reasoning very well, and I'm not 100% sure.

It strikes me as strange that both the rescue and the block do not behavior identically wrt instead. The wording seems to me to be two (linked) cost-benefit SAs, which I would think should both work in the same way. So...I would like to ask if any other elders would care to chime in on this.*

I'm sure that's a rather unsatisfying answer, but again, remember the short answer...

That's OK. I have come to expect that from you.  

[Reserved for easy searching by STAMP anytime A New Beginning is mentioned.]

That's funny.  We all agreed to have this serve as a beacon that some mention of redeemed demons need be made in the thread.

Well, it's like the parable of the unforgiving slave.  He owed billions of dollars, and needed to pay a cost (said cash) to gain a benefit (not go to prison)(or set-aside, it's kinda the same).  The cost wasn't paid, but was insteaded, so he shouldn't get the benefit.  But yet he does, once again proving that demons should be redeemed.

Excellent work, Kittens.



*Both to satisfy my own curiosity and, of course, because I have a truly wicked T2 NPE combo deck built around this card, and am anxious for any additional rulings that can be gathered with no one noticing that I seem to be directing inquiries in this direction.

So since we are back to square one Ill try again:

I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?

here are two examples given by Prof A:

I attack. You block with Angry Mob, and my heroes are chosen. You randomly pick Job. He goes to Dust and Ashes.

I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber.

In both of these examples, are the cards that are chosen for discard legal targets? Can they be chosen or must another card be targeted?

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2011, 03:50:36 PM

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 03:34:01 PM

That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?

I didn't say the cost was fulfilled, I said it completed, in the sense that it's done doing what it can, and can't do anything else. It can only be fulfilled, in the sense that the benefit can occur, if the cost did what it was supposed to do.

So if that doesn't apply to cost/effect abilities, and this is a thread about cost/effect abilities, what was the point in bringing it up? And you still haven't actually explained how cost/effect abilities do work in that situation. You very clearly demonstrated how non-cost abilities work, but then said cost effects are different, so we're basically back to square one. Unless I'm missing something, which I must admit is entirely possible.

See, this is why I always prefer answering ruling questions face-to-face. Currently, I am 100% clear on what I am saying, and 0% clear on why you're having difficulty understanding it. I assume you have the exact opposite problem, i.e., you are perfectly content in the way you've presented your position, and can't figure out why you still have unanswered questions after my several responses.  

So, all this talk about square one leads me to think we should try starting over. Feel free to forget everything I've said before, as it didn't seem to help. Allow me to go on for awhile:

Special abilities target. Some of them target cards in a way that directly affects them. Captures, discards, remove from games, etc. are all examples of cards that directly target cards. Some abilities target other cards in ways that more indirectly affect them: immunity, protection, ignores, affect cards by allowing them to not be affected by other cards. I/P/N abilities target other abilities. Restrict abilities target players. But no matter how it happens, all abilities do target. And, in general, abilities only target once. They can target multiple things, and they can have delayed targets, but the fact that they only target once is well-established.

To continue, cards with special abilities can have multiple abilities, each of them can have different targets (this part should be obvious). Some abilities have conditions (i.e. "If blocking", "if used by an Assyrian", etc.) some don't. Some abilities have triggers (i.e. "when X happens, do X", etc.). The most basic type of ability is a direct effect with no condition, no triggers, and no related abilities. Those are the cards that are always easy to judge (i.e. Angel of the Lord says "discard an Evil Character in play"...there's really no way to misinterpret that). Cost/benefit abilities are a bit trickier: they're two separate abilities that look like one because of the fact that they are usually one sentence: "do X to do Y". Really, this should be interpreted as "Do X. If X happened, do Y." We just don't write them like that because we like shorter abilities, and no one should ever be unable to interpret it, obviously... That way, Do X is a normal ability (or maybe a conditional/triggered ability) but it works like a normal ability. "If X happened, do Y" is a conditional ability.

So when my Angel of the Lord discards your guy, it targets it once, and it's done doing everything that Angel of the Lord can do. Angel of the Lord doesn't care whether you healed the character, insteaded the discard, whatever. It targets, and its done doing all that AotL can do.

The "Do X." part of a cost/benefit works similarly. Once "Do X" targets, it doesn't care whether the X was insteaded, or it was fully carried out. The next part does care though. Just like an ability that says "If blocking, do X" can only work if you are blocking, for an ability that says (or effectively says) "if X happens, do Y", Y only occurs if X happened. It doesn't work if something else happened (i.e. X was insteaded).

Ummm....some special abilities have ongoing targeting.

I think he means cards like Great Image. My guess, though, is that the target on GI is a delayed target that doesn't actually choose targets until battle resolution (when it targets all opponents' heroes not in battle at that moment).

Thank You Jordan. I do understand more clearly.

Now on to what Scott is trying to say please...Does this mean that Great Image will not work if something something happens to one of the heros before battle resolution?

Like I said above, I'm pretty sure Great Image has a delayed target trigger that doesn't target anything until the battle moves to resolution at which time it targets all opponents' heroes not currently in battle.

Great Image is indeed a triggered target.

Here are some cards with ongoing targeting:

Broken Cisterns (RA)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place in an opponent's territory. Negate draw abilities used by that player. All Heroes in that territory are decreased by 0/X. • Play As: Place in an opponent's territory. Negate draw abilities used by that player. Decrease all Heroes in that territory by 0/X. • Identifiers: OT, X = the number of good brigades in this territory. • Verse: Jeremiah 2:13

Unbowed (FF)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes are immune to selected evil brigade. Negate and deactivate an Artifact depicting an idol. Decrease all demons in play by 0/X. • Identifiers: OT, False Religious Practice, X = the number of Heroes with a Daniel reference in play. • Verse: Daniel 3:18

Zebulun (FF)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Draw a card. If all of your Heroes in play are Genesis Heroes, Zebulun ignores Evil Characters with toughness greater than the number of cards in your hand. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Patriarch (Syria), Son of Jacob • Verse: Genesis 49:13

Thaddeus (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect all cards in play, set-aside area, Artifact piles, hands, and decks from Evil Characters with toughness X or less. Cannot be interrupted. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple • Verse: Matthew 10:2-3

Yes that makes sense, but you can not make real life examples and use them for explanation in Redemption, it just doesn't work.

Yes, but how does Balaam's Donkey fit into this?