Author Topic: Cost/Effect and Instead Abilities (Read 4613 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** April 17, 2011, 08:48:41 PM »

I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:53:52 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 17, 2011, 08:48:41 PM

I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?

Assuming you mean a situation like this: I attack. You block with Angry Mob, and my heroes are chosen. You randomly pick Job. He goes to Dust and Ashes. Angry Mob didn't discard anybody but his ability was satisfied.

Or do you mean like this: I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber. I would rule that that would satisfy Galba, but I'm not 100% sure.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:54:20 PM »

You can use Marketplace off an opponent's HT save, if that's what you're asking.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:58:38 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 17, 2011, 08:54:20 PM

You can use Marketplace off an opponent's HT save, if that's what you're asking.

This is also true.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2011, 09:43:02 PM »

Quote

Or do you mean like this: I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber. I would rule that that would satisfy Galba, but I'm not 100% sure.

This is more along the lines of where he is going with this. There are multiple scenarios. I would say yes, you can discard to satisfy the effect, and then the instead kicks in, but the effect was still fulfilled, somewhat.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2011, 11:58:19 PM »

I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:31:37 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 17, 2011, 11:58:19 PM

I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?

The only way you can't target a card is if it is protected. Cards that will be insteaded can still be targeted. Abilities only target once so if it targets a card that is insteaded then the effect is complete.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:45:27 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2011, 11:31:37 AM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 17, 2011, 11:58:19 PM
I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?

The only way you can't target a card is if it is protected. Cards that will be insteaded can still be targeted. Abilities only target once so if it targets a card that is insteaded then the effect is complete.

I think he's asking why the cost is not treated as being met if the effect is being treated as complete. You said that abilities only target once, so how does an ability (whether it's simply an ability or whether it's a cost/effect) know once it targets something for an ability whether or not that something ended up where that ability sent it, or whether it was insteaded somewhere else?

For example: Why does I am Holy keep a record of a card it targets (and where it ends up) but Christian Martyr doesn't?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:51:31 AM »

The discard good part of I am Holy doesn't keep such a record. However the discard evil part checks to see if anything was discarded. For.example, if I wanted to I could use Iah to put an Angel in chamber during my prep phase even if it won't force a discard.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:40:20 PM »

What about Primary Objective-- a question in two parts:

1) If I have seven cards in my hand, but one of them is an angel and I have Chamber out, can I trigger Primary Objective?

2) Let's say my opponent has Chamber active, if he has any number of angels in hand can he stop me from rescuing the LS?

Primary Objective SA: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge

browarod · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:45:54 PM »

So does a Falling Away played either with Lampstand up or with all players having GoYS active still count as having its ability "completed"?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2011, 01:13:20 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 12:45:54 PM

So does a Falling Away played either with Lampstand up or with all players having GoYS active still count as having its ability "completed"?

Yes. It simply couldn't target anything.

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2011, 01:29:49 PM »

I think this is another situation where I'm having trouble understanding how nothing can be something. If nothing happens, then how can an ability have been carried out?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2011, 01:45:19 PM »

It's the same thing that happens when you block with Huge Egyptian and they have JT up. Nothing stopped the ability, but the ability couldn't find a target.

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2011, 01:53:28 PM »

But how does the ability still "complete"? Wouldn't it fizzle if it couldn't target what it needed to?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2011, 02:11:37 PM »

There's no REG entry for "fizzle." I've always seen fizzle as meaning that it activated, but couldn't find a target.

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2011, 02:58:00 PM »

I never said it didn't activate, I'm wondering why an Elder said it still "completes". "Complete" implies there was an action that began and finished. If the action cannot happen because nothing can be targeted, how can it still complete?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:07:38 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 01:29:49 PM

I think this is another situation where I'm having trouble understanding how nothing can be something. If nothing happens, then how can an ability have been carried out?

It hasn't been carried out, really. Christian Martyr never discards someone if you use Herod's Temple to save it. It has been played, because it did target someone, and you don't get a chance to pick it up and discard someone else. The nature of instead abilities is that abilities finish targeting, and when something is supposed to happen, something else ends up happening. Is it kind of odd? Sure. But there's really no other way to go about it, now that insteads are a part of the game.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 18, 2011, 12:40:20 PM

What about Primary Objective-- a question in two parts:

1) If I have seven cards in my hand, but one of them is an angel and I have Chamber out, can I trigger Primary Objective?

2) Let's say my opponent has Chamber active, if he has any number of angels in hand can he stop me from rescuing the LS?

Primary Objective SA: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge

Short answer: Primary Objective is one of the cards like A New Beginning that should never have been printed the way they were, because of the headaches they cause.

Long answer: First things first, I think PO needs at least a Play As, and probably errata. As is, it's not worded like a true cost benefit, but rather two non-optional abilities. I guess the (minimum 7 cards) was the way to make it seem as if a 7 card minimum is necessary, but I'm not convinced. The way I would think it would work (and would read if it were printed today) is this:

"If making a rescue attempt, discard your hand to select a Lost Soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. If you discarded more than 7 cards from your hand, rescue that Lost Soul. Opponent may discard hand instead. Battle continues as a battle challenge."

According to that, you wouldn't get to select a LS if not all of the cards in your hand were discarded (i.e. if one went to chamber). I think your opponent MIGHT be able to save the block even if one or more of the cards is insteaded, but I can't really explain my reasoning very well, and I'm not 100% sure.

I'm sure that's a rather unsatisfying answer, but again, remember the short answer...

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 02:58:00 PM

I never said it didn't activate, I'm wondering why an Elder said it still "completes". "Complete" implies there was an action that began and finished. If the action cannot happen because nothing can be targeted, how can it still complete?

It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?

browarod · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:16:51 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2011, 03:07:38 PM

It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?

But that's not the case because, based on what you've said, cost cards DO care whether the SA worked out or not, because if the target is insteaded to something other than what the cost was supposed to be the effect of the cost/effect then doesn't work.

If what you say about the card not caring were true, then the cost would be met as soon as you target what you need to target, whether or not that/those target(s) end up in a different location/condition than the cost specified.

Does this help to explain my confusion?

STAMP · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:17:27 PM »

[Reserved for easy searching by STAMP anytime A New Beginning is mentioned.]

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:29:25 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 03:16:51 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2011, 03:07:38 PM
It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?
But that's not the case because, based on what you've said, cost cards DO care whether the SA worked out or not, because if the target is insteaded to something other than what the cost was supposed to be the effect of the cost/effect then doesn't work.

If what you say about the card not caring were true, then the cost would be met as soon as you target what you need to target, whether or not that/those target(s) end up in a different location/condition than the cost specified.

Cost/benefit cards come in 2 parts: The cost, and the benefit (elegant, I know

)

The cost doesn't care what happens after it targets I am Holy targets an Angel for discard. It doesn't matter to the cost whether the angel ended up in the discard pile, the cost part is done. The benefit part then comes in: it checks to see whether or not the cost was paid, and if it was the benefit occurs. Now, the benefit also doesn't care whether it was carried out, it completes when it makes its target. So if you use Intent to Kill, and discard an evil card from your hand to discard a Hero, and that discard is insteaded (say by Herod's Temple), then the benefit is completed, even though it didn't work. You don't get to choose a different Hero, or get the evil card back, the effect just kind of goes away. Or to use a colloquial term: it fizzles.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:34:01 PM »

That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:50:36 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 03:34:01 PM

That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?

I didn't say the cost was fulfilled, I said it completed, in the sense that it's done doing what it can, and can't do anything else. It can only be fulfilled, in the sense that the benefit can occur, if the cost did what it was supposed to do.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:03:28 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 18, 2011, 03:34:01 PM

That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?

Well, it's like the parable of the unforgiving slave. He owed billions of dollars, and needed to pay a cost (said cash) to gain a benefit (not go to prison)(or set-aside, it's kinda the same). The cost wasn't paid, but was insteaded, so he shouldn't get the benefit. But yet he does, once again proving that demons should be redeemed.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #24 on:** April 18, 2011, 05:13:54 PM »

Are healing abilities considered an instead ability?

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Author Topic: Cost/Effect and Instead Abilities (Read 4613 times)

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