Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on April 17, 2011, 08:48:41 PM
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I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?
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I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?
Assuming you mean a situation like this: I attack. You block with Angry Mob, and my heroes are chosen. You randomly pick Job. He goes to Dust and Ashes. Angry Mob didn't discard anybody but his ability was satisfied.
Or do you mean like this: I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber. I would rule that that would satisfy Galba, but I'm not 100% sure.
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You can use Marketplace off an opponent's HT save, if that's what you're asking.
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You can use Marketplace off an opponent's HT save, if that's what you're asking.
This is also true.
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Or do you mean like this: I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber. I would rule that that would satisfy Galba, but I'm not 100% sure.
This is more along the lines of where he is going with this. There are multiple scenarios. I would say yes, you can discard to satisfy the effect, and then the instead kicks in, but the effect was still fulfilled, somewhat.
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I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?
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I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?
The only way you can't target a card is if it is protected. Cards that will be insteaded can still be targeted. Abilities only target once so if it targets a card that is insteaded then the effect is complete.
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I was just curious why you could instead an effect but not a cost? In Prof A's examples, why is it possible to target a card that isnt discarded?
The only way you can't target a card is if it is protected. Cards that will be insteaded can still be targeted. Abilities only target once so if it targets a card that is insteaded then the effect is complete.
I think he's asking why the cost is not treated as being met if the effect is being treated as complete. You said that abilities only target once, so how does an ability (whether it's simply an ability or whether it's a cost/effect) know once it targets something for an ability whether or not that something ended up where that ability sent it, or whether it was insteaded somewhere else?
For example: Why does I am Holy keep a record of a card it targets (and where it ends up) but Christian Martyr doesn't?
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The discard good part of I am Holy doesn't keep such a record. However the discard evil part checks to see if anything was discarded. For.example, if I wanted to I could use Iah to put an Angel in chamber during my prep phase even if it won't force a discard.
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What about Primary Objective-- a question in two parts:
1) If I have seven cards in my hand, but one of them is an angel and I have Chamber out, can I trigger Primary Objective?
2) Let's say my opponent has Chamber active, if he has any number of angels in hand can he stop me from rescuing the LS?
Primary Objective SA: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge
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So does a Falling Away played either with Lampstand up or with all players having GoYS active still count as having its ability "completed"?
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So does a Falling Away played either with Lampstand up or with all players having GoYS active still count as having its ability "completed"?
Yes. It simply couldn't target anything.
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I think this is another situation where I'm having trouble understanding how nothing can be something. If nothing happens, then how can an ability have been carried out?
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It's the same thing that happens when you block with Huge Egyptian and they have JT up. Nothing stopped the ability, but the ability couldn't find a target.
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But how does the ability still "complete"? Wouldn't it fizzle if it couldn't target what it needed to?
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There's no REG entry for "fizzle." I've always seen fizzle as meaning that it activated, but couldn't find a target.
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I never said it didn't activate, I'm wondering why an Elder said it still "completes". "Complete" implies there was an action that began and finished. If the action cannot happen because nothing can be targeted, how can it still complete?
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I think this is another situation where I'm having trouble understanding how nothing can be something. If nothing happens, then how can an ability have been carried out?
It hasn't been carried out, really. Christian Martyr never discards someone if you use Herod's Temple to save it. It has been played, because it did target someone, and you don't get a chance to pick it up and discard someone else. The nature of instead abilities is that abilities finish targeting, and when something is supposed to happen, something else ends up happening. Is it kind of odd? Sure. But there's really no other way to go about it, now that insteads are a part of the game.
What about Primary Objective-- a question in two parts:
1) If I have seven cards in my hand, but one of them is an angel and I have Chamber out, can I trigger Primary Objective?
2) Let's say my opponent has Chamber active, if he has any number of angels in hand can he stop me from rescuing the LS?
Primary Objective SA: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge
Short answer: Primary Objective is one of the cards like A New Beginning that should never have been printed the way they were, because of the headaches they cause.
Long answer: First things first, I think PO needs at least a Play As, and probably errata. As is, it's not worded like a true cost benefit, but rather two non-optional abilities. I guess the (minimum 7 cards) was the way to make it seem as if a 7 card minimum is necessary, but I'm not convinced. The way I would think it would work (and would read if it were printed today) is this:
"If making a rescue attempt, discard your hand to select a Lost Soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. If you discarded more than 7 cards from your hand, rescue that Lost Soul. Opponent may discard hand instead. Battle continues as a battle challenge."
According to that, you wouldn't get to select a LS if not all of the cards in your hand were discarded (i.e. if one went to chamber). I think your opponent MIGHT be able to save the block even if one or more of the cards is insteaded, but I can't really explain my reasoning very well, and I'm not 100% sure.
I'm sure that's a rather unsatisfying answer, but again, remember the short answer...
I never said it didn't activate, I'm wondering why an Elder said it still "completes". "Complete" implies there was an action that began and finished. If the action cannot happen because nothing can be targeted, how can it still complete?
It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?
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It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?
But that's not the case because, based on what you've said, cost cards DO care whether the SA worked out or not, because if the target is insteaded to something other than what the cost was supposed to be the effect of the cost/effect then doesn't work.
If what you say about the card not caring were true, then the cost would be met as soon as you target what you need to target, whether or not that/those target(s) end up in a different location/condition than the cost specified.
Does this help to explain my confusion?
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[Reserved for easy searching by STAMP anytime A New Beginning is mentioned.]
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It "completes" in the sense that it targeted whatever it did, and can't retarget anything. The only thing special abilities really do in Redemption is target other cards (or players in the case of restrict, or other special abilities in the case of I/P/N abilities). The card doesn't really care whether the SA worked out or not. Once a target is established, the card can't be reused to retarget something else. Does that make sense?
But that's not the case because, based on what you've said, cost cards DO care whether the SA worked out or not, because if the target is insteaded to something other than what the cost was supposed to be the effect of the cost/effect then doesn't work.
If what you say about the card not caring were true, then the cost would be met as soon as you target what you need to target, whether or not that/those target(s) end up in a different location/condition than the cost specified.
Cost/benefit cards come in 2 parts: The cost, and the benefit (elegant, I know ;))
The cost doesn't care what happens after it targets I am Holy targets an Angel for discard. It doesn't matter to the cost whether the angel ended up in the discard pile, the cost part is done. The benefit part then comes in: it checks to see whether or not the cost was paid, and if it was the benefit occurs. Now, the benefit also doesn't care whether it was carried out, it completes when it makes its target. So if you use Intent to Kill, and discard an evil card from your hand to discard a Hero, and that discard is insteaded (say by Herod's Temple), then the benefit is completed, even though it didn't work. You don't get to choose a different Hero, or get the evil card back, the effect just kind of goes away. Or to use a colloquial term: it fizzles.
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That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?
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That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?
I didn't say the cost was fulfilled, I said it completed, in the sense that it's done doing what it can, and can't do anything else. It can only be fulfilled, in the sense that the benefit can occur, if the cost did what it was supposed to do.
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That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?
Well, it's like the parable of the unforgiving slave. He owed billions of dollars, and needed to pay a cost (said cash) to gain a benefit (not go to prison)(or set-aside, it's kinda the same). The cost wasn't paid, but was insteaded, so he shouldn't get the benefit. But yet he does, once again proving that demons should be redeemed.
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Are healing abilities considered an instead ability?
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According to that, you wouldn't get to select a LS if not all of the cards in your hand were discarded (i.e. if one went to chamber). I think your opponent MIGHT be able to save the block even if one or more of the cards is insteaded, but I can't really explain my reasoning very well, and I'm not 100% sure.
It strikes me as strange that both the rescue and the block do not behavior identically wrt instead. The wording seems to me to be two (linked) cost-benefit SAs, which I would think should both work in the same way. So...I would like to ask if any other elders would care to chime in on this.*
I'm sure that's a rather unsatisfying answer, but again, remember the short answer...
That's OK. I have come to expect that from you. :P
[Reserved for easy searching by STAMP anytime A New Beginning is mentioned.]
That's funny. We all agreed to have this serve as a beacon that some mention of redeemed demons need be made in the thread.
Well, it's like the parable of the unforgiving slave. He owed billions of dollars, and needed to pay a cost (said cash) to gain a benefit (not go to prison)(or set-aside, it's kinda the same). The cost wasn't paid, but was insteaded, so he shouldn't get the benefit. But yet he does, once again proving that demons should be redeemed.
Excellent work, Kittens.
*Both to satisfy my own curiosity and, of course, because I have a truly wicked T2 NPE combo deck built around this card, and am anxious for any additional rulings that can be gathered with no one noticing that I seem to be directing inquiries in this direction.
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That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?
I didn't say the cost was fulfilled, I said it completed, in the sense that it's done doing what it can, and can't do anything else. It can only be fulfilled, in the sense that the benefit can occur, if the cost did what it was supposed to do.
So if that doesn't apply to cost/effect abilities, and this is a thread about cost/effect abilities, what was the point in bringing it up? And you still haven't actually explained how cost/effect abilities do work in that situation. You very clearly demonstrated how non-cost abilities work, but then said cost effects are different, so we're basically back to square one. Unless I'm missing something, which I must admit is entirely possible.
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So since we are back to square one Ill try again:
I know that instead abilities cant satisfy the cost of effects (aka wandering spirit+sss with Cov of Eden up), but can instead abilities satisfy the effect of abilities?
here are two examples given by Prof A:
I attack. You block with Angry Mob, and my heroes are chosen. You randomly pick Job. He goes to Dust and Ashes.
I attack, you block with Emp Galba and force me to discard a card from my hand. I have an Angel in my hand, and I send it to Chamber.
In both of these examples, are the cards that are chosen for discard legal targets? Can they be chosen or must another card be targeted?
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[Reserved for easy searching by STAMP anytime A New Beginning is mentioned.]
That's funny. We all agreed to have this serve as a beacon that some mention of redeemed demons need be made in the thread.
I have Sophie's Choice nightmares: either all erratas can be removed from ANB or demons cannot be redeemed.
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That doesn't explain why an angel discarded for I am Holy but insteaded by Chamber doesn't let you carry out the effect of I am Holy. You said that the cost only cares about the target and then it's fulfilled, and that the benefit only cares that the cost was fulfilled, so wouldn't targeting an angel card from your hand satisfy the cost of I am Holy even though the card doesn't end up in the discard pile?
I didn't say the cost was fulfilled, I said it completed, in the sense that it's done doing what it can, and can't do anything else. It can only be fulfilled, in the sense that the benefit can occur, if the cost did what it was supposed to do.
So if that doesn't apply to cost/effect abilities, and this is a thread about cost/effect abilities, what was the point in bringing it up? And you still haven't actually explained how cost/effect abilities do work in that situation. You very clearly demonstrated how non-cost abilities work, but then said cost effects are different, so we're basically back to square one. Unless I'm missing something, which I must admit is entirely possible.
See, this is why I always prefer answering ruling questions face-to-face. Currently, I am 100% clear on what I am saying, and 0% clear on why you're having difficulty understanding it. I assume you have the exact opposite problem, i.e., you are perfectly content in the way you've presented your position, and can't figure out why you still have unanswered questions after my several responses. :P
So, all this talk about square one leads me to think we should try starting over. Feel free to forget everything I've said before, as it didn't seem to help. Allow me to go on for awhile:
Special abilities target. Some of them target cards in a way that directly affects them. Captures, discards, remove from games, etc. are all examples of cards that directly target cards. Some abilities target other cards in ways that more indirectly affect them: immunity, protection, ignores, affect cards by allowing them to not be affected by other cards. I/P/N abilities target other abilities. Restrict abilities target players. But no matter how it happens, all abilities do target. And, in general, abilities only target once. They can target multiple things, and they can have delayed targets, but the fact that they only target once is well-established.
To continue, cards with special abilities can have multiple abilities, each of them can have different targets (this part should be obvious). Some abilities have conditions (i.e. "If blocking", "if used by an Assyrian", etc.) some don't. Some abilities have triggers (i.e. "when X happens, do X", etc.). The most basic type of ability is a direct effect with no condition, no triggers, and no related abilities. Those are the cards that are always easy to judge (i.e. Angel of the Lord says "discard an Evil Character in play"...there's really no way to misinterpret that). Cost/benefit abilities are a bit trickier: they're two separate abilities that look like one because of the fact that they are usually one sentence: "do X to do Y". Really, this should be interpreted as "Do X. If X happened, do Y." We just don't write them like that because we like shorter abilities, and no one should ever be unable to interpret it, obviously... :P That way, Do X is a normal ability (or maybe a conditional/triggered ability) but it works like a normal ability. "If X happened, do Y" is a conditional ability.
So when my Angel of the Lord discards your guy, it targets it once, and it's done doing everything that Angel of the Lord can do. Angel of the Lord doesn't care whether you healed the character, insteaded the discard, whatever. It targets, and its done doing all that AotL can do.
The "Do X." part of a cost/benefit works similarly. Once "Do X" targets, it doesn't care whether the X was insteaded, or it was fully carried out. The next part does care though. Just like an ability that says "If blocking, do X" can only work if you are blocking, for an ability that says (or effectively says) "if X happens, do Y", Y only occurs if X happened. It doesn't work if something else happened (i.e. X was insteaded).
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So, now let's say your opponent blocks with Emperor Galba, and forces you to discard a card in your hand. The target of Galba's ability is chosen by you, but it can only target that one card. So you choose the Angel that is in your hand. Now Galba is done doing everything that he does, his ability has no more effect on the game at this point. The fact that the card he targeted goes to Chamber is never discarded makes no difference to his ability.
But, let's now say that you activate I am Holy. The "Do X" of I am Holy targets any good card in your hand (say an Angel). Again, like Galba, it has done everything that it (the "Do X" part) can do. And also like Galba, it doesn't care what really happened to the card it targeted; not its problem. Just because nothing was discarded, the Do X still targeted, and you don't get to retarget, or anything like that. The Do Y, however, is conditional. Just like an ability that says "if used by an Assyrian" the second part of I am Holy is conditional: "If the discard of a good card from hand happened, opponent must discard an evil card from hand." However, in the case of an Angel being targeted, nothing was ever discarded. It was targeted for discard, and would have been discarded, save for the fact that the discard was insteaded. So even though X was completed, insofar as it could be completed, the discard was not completed, and the condition wasn't fulfilled.
Is that starting to make sense? Again, this would be easier if we were in the same room and could hash it out man-to-man, but these exchanges will have to suffice for now.
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Ummm....some special abilities have ongoing targeting.
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Ummm....some special abilities have ongoing targeting.
Like what? Some abilities have ongoing effects, but they only target one time, right?
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I think he means cards like Great Image. My guess, though, is that the target on GI is a delayed target that doesn't actually choose targets until battle resolution (when it targets all opponents' heroes not in battle at that moment).
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Ummm....some special abilities have ongoing targeting.
Like what? Some abilities have ongoing effects, but they only target one time, right?
Unless it's been changed, ongoing abilities that are dependant upon X number of targets.
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Thank You Jordan. I do understand more clearly.
Now on to what Scott is trying to say please...Does this mean that Great Image will not work if something something happens to one of the heros before battle resolution?
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Now on to what Scott is trying to say please...Does this mean that Great Image will not work if something something happens to one of the heros before battle resolution?
Nooooo! I hope not.
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Like I said above, I'm pretty sure Great Image has a delayed target trigger that doesn't target anything until the battle moves to resolution at which time it targets all opponents' heroes not currently in battle.
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i agree as well just trying to understand what Stamp is saying.
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Great Image is indeed a triggered target.
Here are some cards with ongoing targeting:
Broken Cisterns (RA)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place in an opponent's territory. Negate draw abilities used by that player. All Heroes in that territory are decreased by 0/X. • Play As: Place in an opponent's territory. Negate draw abilities used by that player. Decrease all Heroes in that territory by 0/X. • Identifiers: OT, X = the number of good brigades in this territory. • Verse: Jeremiah 2:13
Unbowed (FF)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes are immune to selected evil brigade. Negate and deactivate an Artifact depicting an idol. Decrease all demons in play by 0/X. • Identifiers: OT, False Religious Practice, X = the number of Heroes with a Daniel reference in play. • Verse: Daniel 3:18
Zebulun (FF)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Draw a card. If all of your Heroes in play are Genesis Heroes, Zebulun ignores Evil Characters with toughness greater than the number of cards in your hand. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Patriarch (Syria), Son of Jacob • Verse: Genesis 49:13
Thaddeus (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect all cards in play, set-aside area, Artifact piles, hands, and decks from Evil Characters with toughness X or less. Cannot be interrupted. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple • Verse: Matthew 10:2-3
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My take on cost/effect:
You play a card that says,"you must go outside and pick up a rock. You may throw that rock at your opponent."
The cost is the going outside and getting a rock while the effect is that you get to throw it at your opponent. So, if the cost is insteaded (you go outside and pick up a branch instead), you can't use the effect (because you have a branch instead of a rock).
However, if you go outside, pick up a rock, come back, throw it at me, and before it hits me, I put up a shield to block it, you still paid the cost (got the rock) and used the effect (throw it at me) but instead of hitting me, it hit my shield. So the ability completes even though I was protected from it.
Hope that makes sence.
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Yes that makes sense, but you can not make real life examples and use them for explanation in Redemption, it just doesn't work.
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Yes that makes sense, but you can not make real life examples and use them for explanation in Redemption, it just doesn't work.
Is he talking about 5 smooth stones? ;D
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Yes, but how does Balaam's Donkey fit into this?