Author Topic: Conversion Crazyness (Read 7067 times)

SirNobody · « **Reply #25 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:44:08 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 04:21:05 PM

There is no rule or precedent that says cards are treated differently when played in side battles.

Actually, there is a lot of precedent supporting the idea that cards can be handled differently when played in side battles. A New Beginning, Women as Snares, King Menehem all work differently in a side battle than in a normal battle. And those are just a few examples, there are a lot of abilities that say "If making a rescue attempt," "When blocking" or similar phrases that only work in a normal battle and do not work in a side battle. Saul's Spear's ability only works if it's used in a side battle. And it's not just abilities that treat side battles differently. Experience Credit is a rule that treats side battles differently than normal battles. You cannot get experience credit in a side battle you can get experience credit in a regular battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Sean · « **Reply #26 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:05:18 PM »

The cards you mentioned don't change when used in side battles, their special abilities just don't do anything because of how they are worded. That has nothing to do with losing by removal and your desire to throw it out the window for side battle situations.

Again, what rule are you using that says conversion, when played in side battles, doesn't cause the target to be losing by removal?

browarod · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:21:33 PM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 05:05:18 PM

Again, what rule are you using that says conversion, when played in side battles, doesn't cause the target to be losing by removal?

Characters being converted are losing by removal in a normal battle due to game rule, not due to the card itself. There is no such game rule for side battles (that I know of). So, if cards really are being treated differently between regular and side battles, it's the current ruling that's doing it, not a ruling that says characters can be converted without losing in a side battle.

Sean · « **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:24:19 PM »

Battle resolution for side battles is played the same as normal battles. There's nothing that says losing by removal is different in side battles than it is in normal battles. There aren't separate rules for side battles because the rules for normal battles apply just the same.

lightningninja · « **Reply #29 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:42:13 PM »

I agree with Sean that there is no consistency. I don't care how the rule goes or even have much of an opinion... but I do like to see consistency.

browarod · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:45:00 PM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 05:24:19 PM

Battle resolution for side battles is played the same as normal battles.

Apparently not?

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 05:24:19 PM

There aren't separate rules for side battles because the rules for normal battles apply just the same.

Except that there have to be, otherwise side battles wouldn't work at all since they don't have 2 sides (at the beginning, at least).

Sean · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:59:53 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 04, 2009, 05:45:00 PM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 05:24:19 PM
Battle resolution for side battles is played the same as normal battles.
Apparently not?

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 05:24:19 PM
There aren't separate rules for side battles because the rules for normal battles apply just the same.
Except that there have to be, otherwise side battles wouldn't work at all since they don't have 2 sides (at the beginning, at least).

Please show me these rules for side battles.

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:08:46 PM »

Battle in the REG is broken into several parts, 2 of which are "Present Hero" (self-explanatory) and "Block" (where it is decided whether an Evil Character will block). Obviously side battles work differently since these 2 steps are not taken, rather whoever plays the ability usually chooses which 2 characters will block. The side battle doesn't follow the usual rules of battle ("Present Hero" and "Block" specifically). The only stipulation the side battle rules have are to "surviving" and "not surviving" characters and what happens to them and their enhancements after the battle is over. You cannot rescue a Lost Soul in a side battle, so obviously the battle resolution for side battles are different. There is no "rescuing" or "blocking" so why would conversion change anything? It's still 2 characters fighting. Side battles make no distinction regarding the alignment of the battling characters.

REG -> Side Battles: http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/sidebattles.htm

Sean · « **Reply #33 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:14:16 PM »

That is a definition of what a side battle is, not the rules for carrying it out. The rules for initiative and battle resolution are the same unless stated otherwise. Can anyone show me where they are stated otherwise?

STAMP · « **Reply #34 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:21:07 PM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 06:14:16 PM

That is a definition of what a side battle is, not the rules for carrying it out. The rules for initiative and battle resolution are the same unless stated otherwise. Can anyone show me where they are stated otherwise?

Well even if they are not stated otherwise we cannot assume they are the same. When you look at the Battle Resolution section in the REG, all four scenarios are written from the perspective of a normal battle. There really should be a separate distinction made for side battles.

Sean · « **Reply #35 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:23:33 PM »

Quote

Well even if they are not stated otherwise we cannot assume they are the same.

We are bound to the rules set forth for normal battles because there are not specific rules for side battles. It isn't that we are assuming that they are the same, its that we have to use the same rules because we don't have separate rules. We can't just make stuff up.

Quote

There really should be a separate distinction made for side battles.

SirNobody · « **Reply #36 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:11:10 PM »

Hey,

The current REG says:

"A converted character in an illegal situation must withdraw to its owners territory (e.g., a Hero blocking a rescue attempt resulting from an Evil Character being converted)."

This is being rewritten in the new REG to say:

"If a conversion ability creates a hero that is blocking or an evil character that is attacking that character must withdraw to its owner's territory as a response to the convert ability."

It is this rule, not the conversion itself that forces a converted character out of battle and passes initiative as a character defeating ability. (Note that Gold Shield does not necessarily pass initiative because, since the hero remains a hero, this rule does not apply.) This rule does not apply in side battles which is why convert works differently in side battles.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Sean · « **Reply #37 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:14:50 PM »

Why doesn't it apply in side battles? Where is this stated? As I said before, we are bound to the rules set forth for normal battles because there are not specific rules for side battles.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #38 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:41:20 PM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 07:14:50 PM

Why doesn't it apply in side battles? Where is this stated? As I said before, we are bound to the rules set forth for normal battles because there are not specific rules for side battles.

If the quote Maly said was written for the new REG is true, then it wouldnt apply to side battles for one reason.

You dont rescue or block in a side battle.

Perri · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:32:36 AM »

Quote

Why doesn't it apply in side battles? Where is this stated? As I said before, we are bound to the rules set forth for normal battles because there are not specific rules for side battles.

From the REG:

Quote

"A converted character in an illegal situation must withdraw to its owners territory (e.g., a Hero blocking a rescue attempt resulting from an Evil Character being converted)."

The convert "How to use" and "Default Conditions" say nothing about removing a converted character from battle, under "Special Conditions" it says they're removed in an illegal situation. If two heroes or evil characters fighting eachother was an illegal situation, it seems to me that there would be no cards that cause them to do such.

For example, someone mentioned gold shield. If I use gold shield on a hero in battle, to change him to a different brigade, he wouldn't be removed, would he?

Gold Shield
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gray • Ability: 0 / 5 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: You may discard this card to convert a human Hero in play to a Hero in the brigade of your choice.

Sorry for the terribly long post. :O

SirNobody · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:00:03 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 04, 2009, 07:41:20 PM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 07:14:50 PM
Why doesn't it apply in side battles? Where is this stated? As I said before, we are bound to the rules set forth for normal battles because there are not specific rules for side battles.

If the quote Maly said was written for the new REG is true, then it wouldnt apply to side battles for one reason.

You dont rescue or block in a side battle.

Exactly.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:05:58 AM »

Quote from: Perri on December 05, 2009, 03:32:36 AM

For example, someone mentioned gold shield. If I use gold shield on a hero in battle, to change him to a different brigade, he wouldn't be removed, would he?

Nope. He stays in battle.

Quote

Sorry for the terribly long post. :O

Pfft, long posts are when it takes two full posts of text to get a point across. Trust me, It's happened before.

Sean · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2009, 01:05:50 PM »

I fully expect to be able to use Unknown Nation in the manner STAMP mentioned previously because of this ruling.

lightningninja · « **Reply #43 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:50:30 PM »

It was ruled that you can't use unknown nation in a side battle? I must have missed that... what was the reason for that ruling?

Sean · « **Reply #44 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:39:45 PM »

Quote from: STAMP

asked if they could use Unknown Nation to bring an EC into a side battle between two heroes if the holder let his hero die. Based on the wording of the special ability it made sense. The "blah blah blah" PTB-explanation was that once a battle starts as hero vs EC, here vs hero, or EC vs EC, it stays that way.

lightningninja · « **Reply #45 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:41:28 PM »

Oh I see. That makes sense.... but I think Sean is right that they should both work the same way.

Bryon · « **Reply #46 on:** December 07, 2009, 12:41:04 PM »

If my EC is converted in a rescue attempt or battle challenge, then my EC becomes a hero. Heroes cannot block rescue attempt or battle challenge, so the character is removed from battle. The removal is not a result of a conversion ability. A convert ability does not have a "return to territory" as part of it. The removal is because of the RULE that heroes don't block rescue attempts or battle challenges.

There is no rule that says heroes can't fight ECs in side battles. Just because they don't typically start that way doesn't mean they can't become that way.

As further evidence on my side of the argument, Gold Shield converts a hero to a different brigade and does not result in losing by removal. Thus, it is NOT the convert ability that causes removal. It is the game rule that heroes don't block. But once again, there is no rule disallowing ECs from fighting heroes in side battles. I would not be surprised to see a card that begins such a side battle in the coming years.

Sean · « **Reply #47 on:** December 07, 2009, 12:54:00 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on December 07, 2009, 12:41:04 PM

If my EC is converted in a rescue attempt or battle challenge, then my EC becomes a hero. Heroes cannot block rescue attempt or battle challenge, so the character is removed from battle. The removal is not a result of a conversion ability. A convert ability does not have a "return to territory" as part of it. The removal is because of the RULE that heroes don't block rescue attempts or battle challenges.

There is no rule that says heroes can't fight ECs in side battles. Just because they don't typically start that way doesn't mean they can't become that way.

As further evidence on my side of the argument, Gold Shield converts a hero to a different brigade and does not result in losing by removal. Thus, it is NOT the convert ability that causes removal. It is the game rule that heroes don't block. But once again, there is no rule disallowing ECs from fighting heroes in side battles. I would not be surprised to see a card that begins such a side battle in the coming years.

So that means I can use Unknown Nation in the scenario described. Thanks.

STAMP · « **Reply #48 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:13:39 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on December 07, 2009, 12:41:04 PM

I would not be surprised to see a card that begins such a side battle in the coming years.

Handel's Messiah

lightningninja · « **Reply #49 on:** December 07, 2009, 06:44:49 PM »

Judging from all your amazing posts in the past, I'm gonna assume that was a really clever pun. Unfortunately I missed it this time.

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Author Topic: Conversion Crazyness (Read 7067 times)

browarod

browarod

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Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo