Author Topic: Conversion Crazyness (Read 7182 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **on:** December 04, 2009, 12:48:15 AM »

Very Hypothetical Situation.

I create a side battle between a random evil character and my King Ahaz.

I play Gibeonite Treaty and convert King Ahaz to a hero, can I play Authority of Christ on Ahaz?

Gibeonite Treaty
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder's human Evil Character may be converted to a Hero in brigade of choice, or may be placed in opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Joshua 9:15 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

Other abilities Irrelavant.

Thanks,

RDT

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:19:52 AM »

If you get Gibeonite Treaty errata'd... [fist wave]

Sean · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:22:34 AM »

No, converting him would force him out of battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:31:52 AM »

Regardless of Sean's point (which I back as well), He would no longer be a brown EC.

Perri · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2009, 02:06:50 AM »

Wouldn't it be easier to use something like King Rehoboam, or christian suing another on your own purple hero? For that matter, you could make one of your heroes fight your own hero.

King Rehoboam
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 7 / 6 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Select any two Heroes in territory to fight each other. Losers are placed beneath owner's draw pile(s).

Christian Suing Another
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder interrupts the battle and chooses a Hero in play to fight the rescuing Hero. The loser is discarded.

Quote

No, converting him would force him out of battle.

Um..why? I'm sort of new, so I may sound newbie-ish here, but I don't remember (or see in the REG) a rule about converting a character forcing them out of battle unless it's an illegal situation, and since it would be a side battle, I don't think that would force him out.

SirNobody · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:27:18 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Perri on December 04, 2009, 02:06:50 AM

Quote
No, converting him would force him out of battle.
Um..why? I'm sort of new, so I may sound newbie-ish here, but I don't remember (or see in the REG) a rule about converting a character forcing them out of battle unless it's an illegal situation, and since it would be a side battle, I don't think that would force him out.

Perri is right. Conversion does not force the character out of a side battle, only out of a rescue attempt. There are no cards right now that force a hero to fight an evil character in a side battle, but there is nothing "illegal" about such a side battle so it would be allowed to continue.

So the answer to the original question is yes, assuming Ahaz is converted to purple (or gains the ability to play purple enhancements some other way) of course.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:11:36 AM »

Lol, that's awesome!

Sean · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:38:46 AM »

Quote

Conversion does not force the character out of a side battle, only out of a rescue attempt.

This makes no sense. If conversion forces a character out of a "normal" battle then it should do the same in a side battle.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2009, 10:00:09 AM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 09:38:46 AM

Quote
Conversion does not force the character out of a side battle, only out of a rescue attempt.
This makes no sense. If conversion forces a character out of a "normal" battle then it should do the same in a side battle.

It makes sense that if an EC is fighting a hero in a RA, that if the EC becomes a hero he would stop trying to stop a LS from being saved. It also makes since that if the hero was converted to an EC that he would stop trying to save a LS. It also makes sense that in a side battle alignment doesn't matter (since there is not LS up for grabs and the fight is really for no particular reason) and so conversion wouldn't affect it.

What doesn't make sense really is why side battles are allowed in this game to begin with. Why do we ever allow heroes to fight each other? I guess evil characters fighting among themselves makes a little more sense. But really this whole idea seems to kinda go against the theme of the game.

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2009, 10:37:08 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 04, 2009, 10:00:09 AM

What doesn't make sense really is why side battles are allowed in this game to begin with. Why do we ever allow heroes to fight each other? I guess evil characters fighting among themselves makes a little more sense. But really this whole idea seems to kinda go against the theme of the game.

There are several examples in the Bible of "Heroes" fighting with one another. Why doesn't it make sense as a game mechanic in Redemption?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:13:21 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 04, 2009, 10:37:08 AM

There are several examples in the Bible of "Heroes" fighting with one another. Why doesn't it make sense as a game mechanic in Redemption?

I admit that my thinking goes back a few years to the old system where special abilities couldn't convert if they would harm someone of the same alignment. I know that the rules have changed since then, but I still have a feeling like the game generally wants heroes doing good things and evil characters doing bad things. Side battles between heroes seem to go against this line of thinking.

I'm not fighting to get this changed or anything. It's been a part of Redemption for a looooong time. I'm just pointing out to Sean that if he wants to point to something not making sense, that there are better targets.

STAMP · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:47:29 AM »

To answer RDT's original question, an Ahaz converted in a side battle would return to territory. Sean and I tried to convince the PTB that it was okay for the battle to revert to hero vs. EC because it doesn't break anything and actually enhances the game. The "Goodell team" thought otherwise. Prof appears to agree with Sean and me. Also, you may be penalized for excessive celebration if you win a game without letting your opponent do much.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 04, 2009, 11:13:21 AM

I know that the rules have changed since then, but I still have a feeling like the game generally wants heroes doing good things and evil characters doing bad things. Side battles between heroes seem to go against this line of thinking.

I agree with you that heroes don't want to fight each other. However, it's an evil special ability that makes them do so. That in my mind is very natural and full of common sense.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:58:37 AM »

Quote

Sean and I tried to convince the PTB that it was okay for the battle to revert to hero vs. EC because it doesn't break anything and actually enhances the game.

STAMP, when was this?

Bryon · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2009, 12:03:37 PM »

I agree with TimSirNobody, who agrees with Perri.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2009, 12:16:16 PM »

Quote

To answer RDT's original question, an Ahaz converted in a side battle would return to territory. Sean and I tried to convince the PTB that it was okay for the battle to revert to hero vs. EC because it doesn't break anything and actually enhances the game. The "Goodell team" thought otherwise.

Try again! Try again!

Quote from: Bryon on December 04, 2009, 12:03:37 PM

I agree with TimSirNobody, who agrees with Perri.

Sean · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2009, 12:19:38 PM »

Quote

It makes sense that if an EC is fighting a hero in a RA, that if the EC becomes a hero he would stop trying to stop a LS from being saved. It also makes since that if the hero was converted to an EC that he would stop trying to save a LS. It also makes sense that in a side battle alignment doesn't matter (since there is not LS up for grabs and the fight is really for no particular reason) and so conversion wouldn't affect it.

My answer has nothing to do with alignment. Whenever a character is converted it is considered to be "losing by removal." This should not change no matter what kind of battle is taking place.

STAMP · « **Reply #16 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:51:58 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 04, 2009, 11:58:37 AM

Quote
Sean and I tried to convince the PTB that it was okay for the battle to revert to hero vs. EC because it doesn't break anything and actually enhances the game.

STAMP, when was this?

Ok, here's the deal. I did many advanced searches, and lo and behold, could not find the thread I was looking for (seems to happen a lot lately $:-\$ ). I thought it was Sean, but it could also have been TimMierz, who asked if they could use Unknown Nation to bring an EC into a side battle between two heroes if the holder let his hero die. Based on the wording of the special ability it made sense. The "blah blah blah" PTB-explanation was that once a battle starts as hero vs EC, here vs hero, or EC vs EC, it stays that way. As a judge, I like that because it is simple and straightforward. But I'm retired. So my opinions are only from a player perspective now. Therefore, the explanation to me just supresses the creativity that can be harnessed which will help to avoid the game becoming stagnate. In my honest opinion, of course.

To expound, there is no lost soul at stake in a side battle so I feel that if a special ability allows for the battle to change from hero vs hero to hero vs EC, and then maybe another SA changes it to EC vs EC, that creates a scenario for more strategy, more cards used, and more FUN! It's just as logical as an SA that bypasses game rules to allow a hero to fight a hero (which some feel isn't that logical at all

)

BUT, it looks like some of the PTB agree with this:

Quote from: SirNobody on December 04, 2009, 05:27:18 AM

Hey,

Quote from: Perri on December 04, 2009, 02:06:50 AM
Quote
No, converting him would force him out of battle.
Um..why? I'm sort of new, so I may sound newbie-ish here, but I don't remember (or see in the REG) a rule about converting a character forcing them out of battle unless it's an illegal situation, and since it would be a side battle, I don't think that would force him out.

Perri is right. Conversion does not force the character out of a side battle, only out of a rescue attempt. There are no cards right now that force a hero to fight an evil character in a side battle, but there is nothing "illegal" about such a side battle so it would be allowed to continue.

So the answer to the original question is yes, assuming Ahaz is converted to purple (or gains the ability to play purple enhancements some other way) of course.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Quote from: Bryon on December 04, 2009, 12:03:37 PM

I agree with TimSirNobody, who agrees with Perri.

So this is cause for GREAT CELEBRATION!!

Sean · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2009, 02:13:07 PM »

Quote

I thought it was Sean, but it could also have been TimMierz, who asked if they could use Unknown Nation to bring an EC into a side battle between two heroes if the holder let his hero die.

It was I who prompted that discussion.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2009, 03:08:03 PM »

Well in this case perhaps the ruling on Unknown Nation in a side battle should be revisited because it seems inconsistent with this ruling.

lightningninja · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »

Wow.... I would have thought the other way but this is AWESOME that it works like this. Cool. Maybe they're making cool stuff work to make up for all the dreams they crushed when they errata'd ANB?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:17:39 PM »

Heh, I'm just gonna see how many cards I can get Errataed/rule against before the next set, my goal is 5

lightningninja · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:20:51 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 04, 2009, 04:17:39 PM

Heh, I'm just gonna see how many cards I can get Errataed/rule against before the next set, my goal is 5

HAHHAHAHA. That's a hard combo to pull off though, I doubt that's gonna get an errata.

That's a sweet goal though let me know if I can be of help.

Sean · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:21:05 PM »

The way Tim and Bryon are ruling this is stupid and they have no grounds to make they ruling they've made. There is no rule or precedent that says cards are treated differently when played in side battles.

Please note that I am not saying Tim and Bryon are stupid. They are just very wrong.

STAMP · « **Reply #23 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:32:44 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on December 04, 2009, 04:16:12 PM

Wow.... I would have thought the other way but this is AWESOME that it works like this. Cool. Maybe they're making cool stuff work to make up for all the dreams they crushed when they errata'd ANB?

Well, being that side battles are my favorite T2 strategy, I don't mind.

But....

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 04, 2009, 04:17:39 PM

Heh, I'm just gonna see how many cards I can get Errataed/rule against before the next set, my goal is 5

I foresee a repeal on the horizon.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #24 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:34:29 PM »

Nah, the ANB thing was a thorn in the playtesters side for years, I just gave them a legitimate excuse to remove it (No pun intended) This one I could see going either way, and I honestly don't have any real combo revolving around it just yet.

News:

Author Topic: Conversion Crazyness (Read 7182 times)

Lamborghini_diablo