Author Topic: Conquer and Beast of the Sea should be Royalty? (Read 2300 times)

megamanlan · « **on:** May 27, 2017, 05:15:09 PM »

I've been studying this for a bit and I think that Conquer and Beast of the Sea should be Royalty. I have a few reasons for this:

1. Both are shown to have crowns:

[Conquer] - “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.”
Revelation‬ 6:2‬ NIV‬‬

[Beast of the Sea] - “The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.”
Revelation‬ 13:1 NIV

2. Both represent kings.

It is generally accepted that the Beast of the Sea is the AntiChrist which when Daniel discusses him, he calls him a king.

““The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.”
Daniel‬ 11:36-38‬ NIV‬‬
This is supported by Revelation 13 when it says:
“The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.”
Revelation‬ 13:2-6‬ NIV‬‬
I'll make the point of adding that the one who conquers through most of Revelation is the AntiChrist, giving a strong point that the First Horseman symbolizes the AntiChrist.

3. The AntiChrist is given power over the World:
once again Revelation 13 states:
“The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.”
Revelation‬ 13:2‬ NIV‬‬

But not just the Devil gives his power to the Beast, but the kings of the world do as well:
“The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come. “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.”
Revelation‬ 17:8-13‬ NIV‬‬

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:15:50 PM »

4. God punishes the AntiChrist as the World's political leader
““While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully. “As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.”
Daniel‬ 7:8-11‬ NIV‬‬

“The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. “ ‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’”
Daniel‬ 7:24-27‬ NIV

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
Revelation‬ 19:17-20‬ NIV‬‬

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Revelation‬ 20:10‬ NIV‬‬

I have other ones that link to Royalty as well, which I can bring up later.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »

That's a great post but currently in Redemption Royalty refers specifically to humans.

Quote from: REG

Royalty (or Member of a Royal Family)

Only human characters can be part of a ‘Royal Family’.

That is why characters such as King of Tyrus exist who certainly counts as a king but not as royalty.

megamanlan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:24:26 PM »

Well then they should probably be "Kings" then as the evidence would support them being Kings.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2017, 03:15:07 PM »

I had not seen this post before today, but I appreciate the time you took to lay out your reasoning and support.

While it's not something I expect we will change right now, the reasoning for Beast from the Sea being a king certainly has some merit (probably more than Conquer IMO). It might be something we discuss for the REG 5.0 update that we expect to release after Nationals this year.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2017, 04:22:28 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 27, 2017, 05:19:11 PM

That's a great post but currently in Redemption Royalty refers specifically to humans.

Quote from: REG
Royalty (or Member of a Royal Family)

Only human characters can be part of a ‘Royal Family’.

That is why characters such as King of Tyrus exist who certainly counts as a king but not as royalty.

Isn't KoT a king?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2017, 04:24:17 PM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on May 30, 2017, 04:22:28 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 27, 2017, 05:19:11 PM
That's a great post but currently in Redemption Royalty refers specifically to humans.

Quote from: REG
Royalty (or Member of a Royal Family)

Only human characters can be part of a ‘Royal Family’.

That is why characters such as King of Tyrus exist who certainly counts as a king but not as royalty.

Isn't KoT a king?

Yes he is a king but he is not royalty.

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2017, 04:24:53 PM »

Yes, King of Tyrus is a King (as are characters like Goat with Horn) but they are not "royalty" or "from a royal family."

megamanlan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2017, 02:55:43 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 30, 2017, 03:15:07 PM

I had not seen this post before today, but I appreciate the time you took to lay out your reasoning and support.

While it's not something I expect we will change right now, the reasoning for Beast from the Sea being a king certainly has some merit (probably more than Conquer IMO). It might be something we discuss for the REG 5.0 update that we expect to release after Nationals this year.

I'm glad to hear of the consideration. The main point I have for Conquer being a King would be that he is generally seen as the AntiChrist or Christ. (Depending on your view of Revelation. I lean towards the former, and I believe there is enough evidence to say both are Kings which brings a lot of weight towards Conquer getting that identifier too.) I would be quite interested to see how it plays out!

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM »

The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

megamanlan · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM

The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2017, 08:13:26 PM »

Futurist says it's a real person, dispensational says it's the Antichrist. It's actually chronologically impossible for the White Rider to be the Antichrist.

megamanlan · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

megamanlan · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2017, 08:22:33 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 08:13:26 PM

Futurist says it's a real person, dispensational says it's the Antichrist. It's actually chronologically impossible for the White Rider to be the Antichrist.

Explain that, as the Seals are in the Tribulation, and it doesn't make sense to be Christ.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2017, 09:06:46 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

A crown doesn't have to represent a king. It can also be used simply to represent victory or triumph even if that victor isn't necessarily a ruler. Again, there are multiple possible interpretations and so I would imagine the game, in the interest of being as neutral as possible, would not classify him as a king.

soul seeker · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2017, 09:22:46 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

A bit of a sidebar (from the Redemption card request) but there are actually 4 major views regarding Revelation. Interestingly, Futurist actually encompasses both the futurist & dispensational viewpoints. My books are at the office but off the top of my head: Historicist and Preterist are 2 of the 4.

Red · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2017, 10:01:30 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on June 03, 2017, 09:22:46 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

A bit of a sidebar (from the Redemption card request) but there are actually 4 major views regarding Revelation. Interestingly, Futurist actually encompasses both the futurist & dispensational viewpoints. My books are at the office but off the top of my head: Historicist and Preterist are 2 of the 4.

Idealist is the fourth. Also, a historicist approach to the first seal has it representative of the church that takes the world by storm.

megamanlan · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2017, 10:44:52 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 09:06:46 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

A crown doesn't have to represent a king. It can also be used simply to represent victory or triumph even if that victor isn't necessarily a ruler. Again, there are multiple possible interpretations and so I would imagine the game, in the interest of being as neutral as possible, would not classify him as a king.

It could represent other things... unless you know the historical and cultural context. The context is fairly clear that to the culture it was written to, they would see a crown as a symbol of royalty and a conquerer associated with the end times as most likely the AntiChrist.

megamanlan · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2017, 11:07:07 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on June 03, 2017, 09:22:46 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 03, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: megamanlan on June 03, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 03, 2017, 06:19:13 PM
The dispensational view of the first seal is nowhere near universally recognized and Redemption is unlikely to pick theological sides.

That's not "dispensational" that's Futuristic view of Revelation. Of which RoJ already leans on heavily. But the ONLY other view of Conquer is that it is Christ who again is a King. Again, with all of the Four Horsemen being EC's, the game is already leaning towards it being the AntiChrist (which is implied by the Chapter itself.(

I definitely disagree that the only two possible interpretations are that it has to be either Christ or the AntiChrist. Reducing a symbolic and prophetic passage of scripture down to only two alternatives is a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's enough there to objectively give Conquer the king identifier.

I study Revelation. I have yet to hear anything besides those options and on top of that: He wears a crown! He rides off to Conquer the world and who is ruling the world later on in the book, and if you know anything of Apocolyptic literature, you'll learn that it's either fairly obvious to understand (or obvious to the original audience to understand) or it's explained directly. So it's most likely obvious.

A bit of a sidebar (from the Redemption card request) but there are actually 4 major views regarding Revelation. Interestingly, Futurist actually encompasses both the futurist & dispensational viewpoints. My books are at the office but off the top of my head: Historicist and Preterist are 2 of the 4.

Yes, there are 4 major ways of interpreting Revelation. I don't remember the theological names but more by the general beliefs.

1. Historical - Revelation is fulfilled in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem fell.
2. Through the Ages - Revelation is being fulfilled throughout History starting when Jerusalem fell.
3. Metaphorical - Revelation will never physically happen. It's all metaphors about the Christian life.
4. Futuristic - Revelation is about End-times and will not happen until end of the world.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2017, 11:42:35 AM »

It's been several months since I did the research on the seals/horsemen to figure out how we wanted to apply what is known about them to the game. This is what I recall:

There are a lot of views about who/what Conquer represents, most of which were mentioned here already. The writing covered multiple prophecies (short term and long term). One I don't think I saw is that the short term prophecy was speaking of a roman.

When creating the horsemen we wanted to cover the spectrum of evil brigades. Because of the loose ties to being roman and/or the antichrist we applied crimson and gray to Conquer. Not because he necessarily represents either or both, but because it gave us a thematic tie and fit a need.

We created a term to apply to characters like Doubt, Madness and the horsemen the way we choose to represent them in the game - Symbolic. Is Conquer the Christ? Is he the antichrist? Some roman Emperor? Something else? We leave that up to you, your research and your beliefs.

The discussion taking place here is a good example of why we often try not to choose a side on debatable matters (and a lot of unfilled prophecy is debatable). There are a number of different beliefs and interpretations in the scriptures. Different churches, denominations and people don't always share the same view. As a game that we want to be accessible to people regardless of their view we try leave debatable matters to those that wish to debate them. I know we don't do a perfect job of this, but we try.

There is one matter that you'll find we are never flexible on and we don't leave open to debate - Jesus Christ is the son of God, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life which he laid down in obedience to the Father to pay for our sins. He rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God interceding for the saints. Salvation comes through him and him alone. Amen.

megamanlan · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2017, 06:08:38 PM »

From all my research I have not heard that about the Roman. Could you send me a link to that interpretation? I'm always interested at other interpretations even if I disagree with them, and would like to know more of this idea.

As for Beast of the Sea, I have still yet to hear any arguement against him being counted as a King.

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Author Topic: Conquer and Beast of the Sea should be Royalty? (Read 2300 times)