Cactus Game Design Message Boards

This is a spinoff of the preview thread, based on Foreign Wives.

If a card says, "If [condition], [ongoing effect]", does this check happen only when played or constantly through the battle?

Some examples:
Foreign Wives: "If opponent has drawn 5 or more cards this turn, protect Foreign Wives from cards used by opponent."
Worldly Woman: "If a demon is in battle, character is immune to convert abilities this turn."
Sword of the Guardian: "If used by a Hero with strength 6/* or lower, Hero is immune to discard abilities on evil enhancements."
Zebulun: "If all of your Heroes in play are Genesis Heroes, Zebulun ignores Evil Characters with toughness greater than the number of cards in your hand."

Some input from people in the previous thread.

Gabe says:

Since protection is an ongoing ability I assume the condition is an ongoing check, similar to Balaam's Disobedience. For example, if I draw 3 from Matthew, block with FW and play Midianite Attack, negating the draw, she would no longer be protected. Not sure why I'd do that...

I could be wrong about that, but that was my assumption during testing.

Redoubter says:
First, I support the idea that FW checks at the moment she enters battle.  It is not an ongoing effect or triggered condition, it is quite plainly "If this has happened, do XYZ".  Her wording as an ongoing ability that would continuously check would be "Protect this card from opponent if they draw 5 or more cards this turn."  That is an ongoing ability that has conditions that are checking constantly.  The current wording is not like that at all.

Dear reader, what do you think?

I've seen/heard it ruled at tournaments that Zebulun's check is ongoing (i.e., if the # of cards in your hand changes then his ignore will update).

That is indeed ongoing because it is only the X that is changing, and that by definition a variable X a continuously checking condition when paired with an ongoing ability like ignore.

The problem is that an Artifact (like Iron Pan) with a similar ability is constantly updating the condition, because it is an artifact.  Artifacts constantly in a state of reactivation when they have an ongoing ability or check.  Characters, on the other hand, only activate once, when they enter battle.

For each of the characters posted in the list, they have a one-time check that goes off and then is done.  It does not check again.  If it were to, the ability would read "While a demon is in battle" or "While the hero using this card is strength 6/* or lower" or "While all of your heroes in play are Genesis heroes".  The wording does not say that at all, and as characters do not constantly activate (like ongoing artifacts, fortresses, sites, etc.), they only can do what is written on the card.

So, for FW, she has a check that goes off during block.  It can never check again, because no part of her ability or card type allows for that.  If the opponent later draws, she does not suddenly gain protection.

Actually characters with ongoing abilities are constantly trying to activate.  If KoT is in battle negating everything, and you play Ezra's Journey to bring in Abiathar, Abiathar's protection is prevented; but if KoT is negated later in the battle, Abiathar's protection will kick in immediately, because it is ongoing.

That's not the case.  If they are prevented when they enter battle, they do not activate again later in the battle.  Characters only activate once, when they enter battle, and at no other point in the battle.

Only if the character activates and then is negated could you negate the negate to have the effect reactivate.

Hey,

We did a poor job of choosing when we used "if" and when we used "while" for the first few years that we did conditional abilities.  When we got around to streamlining it we decided to use a system based on the condition itself rather than a keyword that preceeds the condition.

If the ability that is conditional is an ongoing ability, and if the condition is a "game state" then the ability is dynamically conditional and is constantly being rechecked to see if the "game state" has changed to turn on or turn off the conditional ability.

Protect is an ongoing ability and "has drawn 5 or more cards this turn" is a game state, so Foreign Wives is dynamically conditional.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

That's not consistent with the way the different card types and ongoing/instant abilities have ever been ruled in the past.  When characters are prevented upon entering battle, they never activate again, that has been the consistent rule was have had given, regardless of the type of ability.

Further, the idea of having cards like FW with dynamic conditions results in convoluted rules and inconsistencies.  Being able to gain and lose and gain again the protection in the middle of abilities will cause numerous problems with this card (at what point during a draw/play/negated-draw does she have or not have protection?).

We are getting seriously mixed signals regarding many very important rules of late, and if this indeed going to be a change to the rules, we need to have an update regarding conditional abilities for the REG.