Author Topic: Complicated Scenario. (Read 5750 times)

Smokey · « **on:** October 11, 2009, 05:26:25 PM »

My opponent makes a RA with Salome (7/6 hero, sa not important) I block with Twelve-Fingered Giant (6/12, sa not important).
My opponent plays 'He is Risen' which would remove me from battle.
I play Philistine Chariot and Horses (Interupt the battle, draw 2, play next).
One of the cards I draw is Foolish Advice (Negate all special abilities on enhancements and characters in battle).
I play Foolish Advice to negate 'He is Risen'.

Because I negated the draw ability does Foolish Advice stay in battle?, and What happens to the other card I drew?

SirNobody · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:28:01 PM »

Hey,

All the cards you drew go back but the by the numbers ability of Foolish Advice remains in effect.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:22:04 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 11, 2009, 05:28:01 PM

All the cards you drew go back but the by the numbers ability of Foolish Advice remains in effect.

What? Tim is saying that Foolish Advice goes back to the deck? I thought the rule was that the other card(s) you drew would go back all except for the FbtN that was played, since you can't undraw a card. Did I misread something somewhere?

CountFount · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:29:22 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 11, 2009, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on October 11, 2009, 05:28:01 PM
All the cards you drew go back but the by the numbers ability of Foolish Advice remains in effect.
What? Tim is saying that Foolish Advice goes back to the deck? I thought the rule was that the other card(s) you drew would go back all except for the FbtN that was played, since you can't undraw a card. Did I misread something somewhere?

Where did you read it?

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2009, 11:45:00 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 11, 2009, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on October 11, 2009, 05:28:01 PM
All the cards you drew go back but the by the numbers ability of Foolish Advice remains in effect.
What? Tim is saying that Foolish Advice goes back to the deck? I thought the rule was that the other card(s) you drew would go back all except for the FbtN that was played, since you can't undraw a card. Did I misread something somewhere?

Did you mean can't unplay a card? (Since putting the others back would be undrawing them.)

Negating the special ability that put the card in your hand (draw/search/exchange/reveal) is about the only way to unplay a card, I think.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2009, 11:55:33 PM »

so... if you wanted to use a FBTN card 10 times in T2, you could use 5 FBTN enhs, and 5 searches like False Peace.

If you draw a FBTN enh, play it, do this 4 times
If you draw FP, use it to search for a FBTN enh, then play it to negate FP, stuffing the FBTN enh back into the draw pile. Do this 5 times.
Play the last FBTN enh.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:06:29 AM »

That's so unrealistic. It's not like there's a Grey character with a healthy defense that can play first.

The hitch is, there's no Grey FbtN Enhancement.

NWJosh · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:11:33 AM »

No but there are Roman Emperors with first strike due to Rome. I don't think it would be the main strategy of a deck due to so many can't be negated combos but it could be a fun back up strategy. But as noted above there is no FBTN gray. Hmmm maybe in the next starter deck.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:23:57 AM »

Ant IV, Worship of Milcom to 1/1, FP, Foolish Advice (i think, the black FBTN enh).

Yeah, its impractical... but it gets my point across.

SirNobody · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:32:54 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 11, 2009, 11:55:33 PM

so... if you wanted to use a FBTN card 10 times in T2, you could ...

Or you could just build a deck with 5 Foolish Advice and 5 Mask of Fear. That's what I did in 2001.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:09:29 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 12, 2009, 12:06:29 AM

It's not like there's a Grey character with a healthy defense that can play first.

I think he was referring to False Priests, who can play False Peace immediately and have a defense of 9

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:18:18 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 12, 2009, 12:23:57 AM

Ant IV, Worship of Milcom to 1/1, FP, Foolish Advice (i think, the black FBTN enh).

Yeah, its impractical... but it gets my point across.

Does it? Having a 1/1 guy in a BTN battle doesn't sound that appealing...

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:24:53 AM »

Using False Priests would make it easy to get 15-20 BTN battles with a big EC if there was a BTN grey EE. (5 x False Peace used once, then again from the discard pile = 10x + 5 more times using the BTN EE themselves =15 times + 5 more times maybe if you could get the BTN EEs from the discard pile again using that grey EE that does that).

However, all this is moot because there is so much CBN stuff in T2, and pre-block ignore, and combo decks like SitC that will never let you get to block anyway. So really why bother.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:24:46 AM »

Still, I was mostly asking if it was legal to use FP to essentially recur FBTN enhs a few more times.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:35:04 AM »

Wow, I feel like I've been hypnotized. This is the way it's been all along? I thought there was absolutely no way to unplay a card.

So, what if I block a RA with a Philistine holding Philly Chariot, which I use to play Pride of Simon to search my d/c for Foolish Advice and play it? Do FS go back to the d/c, the cards I drew with Chariot go back to the draw pile, and PoS go back to my hand?

Smokey · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2009, 09:00:13 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 12, 2009, 07:35:04 AM

Wow, I feel like I've been hypnotized. This is the way it's been all along? I thought there was absolutely no way to unplay a card.

So, what if I block a RA with a Philistine holding Philly Chariot, which I use to play Pride of Simon to search my d/c for Foolish Advice and play it? Do FS go back to the d/c, the cards I drew with Chariot go back to the draw pile, and PoS go back to my hand?

No, Play first abilities are CBI so Pride would stay out (unless it was one of the cards you drew).

thestrongangel · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:31:13 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 12, 2009, 07:35:04 AM

Wow, I feel like I've been hypnotized. This is the way it's been all along? I thought there was absolutely no way to unplay a card.

So, what if I block a RA with a Philistine holding Philly Chariot, which I use to play Pride of Simon to search my d/c for Foolish Advice and play it? Do FS go back to the d/c, the cards I drew with Chariot go back to the draw pile, and PoS go back to my hand?

It has been that way for a while. Although in my opinion not the best way, it is what it is. Only in redemption can you put the bullet back in the cartrige three minutes after you fire it.

Smokey · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2009, 03:19:27 PM »

I think making all drawing abilities CBI by game rule (like play firsts) would fix this problem, that seems to be the general trend of newer draw abilities anyways (Damsel, Martha)...

Professoralstad · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:32:22 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on October 13, 2009, 03:19:27 PM

I think making all drawing abilities CBI by game rule (like play firsts) would fix this problem, that seems to be the general trend of newer draw abilities anyways (Damsel, Martha)...

That would be a pretty dramatic change. But I could almost see myself getting behind that rule just because of how many sticky situations it would circumvent. The biggest problem is that the logic behind this idea would be the exact same used for search abilities, so it would probably be that neither ability or both would get a change. I predict neither.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:37:18 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 13, 2009, 08:32:22 PM

Quote from: Smokey on October 13, 2009, 03:19:27 PM
I think making all drawing abilities CBI by game rule (like play firsts) would fix this problem, that seems to be the general trend of newer draw abilities anyways (Damsel, Martha)...

That would be a pretty dramatic change. But I could almost see myself getting behind that rule just because of how many sticky situations it would circumvent. The biggest problem is that the logic behind this idea would be the exact same used for search abilities, so it would probably be that neither ability or both would get a change. I predict neither.

What really needs to happen here is not making all drawing abilities CBI, but simply making a definition of both drawing and searching abilities more clear.

Once a card has been drawn or searched from your deck, it cannot go back in, for any reason. However, allowing a player to negate the ability before it happens would be perfectly acceptable.

So what you do is make it so that once completed, draw and search effects are CBN, but you may negate or prevent them before they are completed. This way you can still try to stop your opponent from drawing/searching, but once you have completed the effect, you cant go back and change it.

Smokey · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:13:00 PM »

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 13, 2009, 08:37:18 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 13, 2009, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: Smokey on October 13, 2009, 03:19:27 PM
I think making all drawing abilities CBI by game rule (like play firsts) would fix this problem, that seems to be the general trend of newer draw abilities anyways (Damsel, Martha)...

That would be a pretty dramatic change. But I could almost see myself getting behind that rule just because of how many sticky situations it would circumvent. The biggest problem is that the logic behind this idea would be the exact same used for search abilities, so it would probably be that neither ability or both would get a change. I predict neither.

What really needs to happen here is not making all drawing abilities CBI, but simply making a definition of both drawing and searching abilities more clear.

Once a card has been drawn or searched from your deck, it cannot go back in, for any reason. However, allowing a player to negate the ability before it happens would be perfectly acceptable.

So what you do is make it so that once completed, draw and search effects are CBN, but you may negate or prevent them before they are completed. This way you can still try to stop your opponent from drawing/searching, but once you have completed the effect, you cant go back and change it.

You're suggesting that only cards that search for cards to put them in play, and cards you play after a draw ability that negates said ability should be CBI?

thestrongangel · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:25:19 PM »

Quote

You're suggesting that only cards that search for cards to put them in play, and cards you play after a draw ability that negates said ability should be CBI?

No, not at all. All I am suggesting here is that once an instant ability is completed, it cannot be interrupted.

To draw an analogy here of firing a gun. Once the primer has been struck, the powder ignited, and the bullet sent flying from the barrel, it is physically impossible to go back afterwards and take the same bullet, cartridge and powder and put it back together. The powder has been burned, the primer spent, and the cartridge has been warped by the ignition of the gunpowder.

Now, if you were to say take the gun away from the person firing it, push their arm in a different direction, or break the gun then the shot would never have been fired.

The problem that we have here is that using current rules, a card like Foolish advice could feasibly be used at minimum of twice, possibly more if allowed certain other effects to happen. By making completed instant abilities CBI, you do one very major thing, which as in real life, is to say what's done is done. If you can negate or prevent a card's effect ahead of its completion, which means the allotment of your opponent to be able to play a negate/prevent effect, then nothing here really changes, except that once completed, a negate all played later does not change what already happened in the past.

At current we play a game that has no sense of its own space/time continuum.

SirNobody · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:28:37 PM »

Hey,

We're not going to make draw abilities cannot be interrupted. They are powerful enough as it is.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:34:15 PM »

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 13, 2009, 09:25:19 PM

No, not at all. All I am suggesting here is that once an instant ability is completed, it cannot be interrupted.

That would make all interrupt and negate cards completely useless since all abilities activate and complete before another ability can activate.

Smokey · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:39:29 PM »

Quote

At current we play a game that has no sense of its own space/time continuum.

Quote

We're not going to make draw abilities cannot be interrupted. They are powerful enough as it is.

Forget things making logical sense and not breaking the time continum, speed is OP.

News:

Author Topic: Complicated Scenario. (Read 5750 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod